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Hey again all, thought I'd move this particular subject over here on its own because I think its a very important subject, and also it might get to a few more sets of eyeballs here.

What started all this for me was last week when I recorded my session with T without her knowing about it or telling her beforehand (see other post for details on how that went in The Couch category).

Her main concern was that I felt I HAD to keep it a secret from her (T), that I was recording it ALL during last weeks session in a "sneaky" kind of way. That I didn't feel safe enough to tell her, and she said that is her number one priority, keeping it safe in there for me and she said she takes this to mean she has to do a better job of that. But as I explained to her, my whole life it's been about keeping secrets... other peoples secrets, my secrets, I used to even create situations that I kept secret. I was taught very early on, probably since day one, about keeping secrets and especially not letting anyone know about the bad stuff, and because I thought this was a bad thing I did, recording our session, it's why I didn't tell her. It was just yet another secret to keep.

I do have some rather intense trust issues with people, It's like I don't trust or accept when they tell me something nice or do something nice for me, or especially if they say the LIKE ME, and so I have to do SOMEthing to test this "theory" of theirs by doing something not so nice to them and see what happens. Like a TRUE friend or somethat REALLY likes me wouldn't mind one bit if I stabbed them in the head, would they?

To further explain my reasonings for what I did, I also will say that this as just yet another way I operate, in that instead of just coming out and asking people or telling people what I want, I instead just do it in a way I'll never get caught and they'll never know. Keep it my secret. I'm not talking robbing anybody or murdering people...things one can get imprisoned for. I'm just talking about asking for one's basic needs, love, attention, respect....asking for kindness... asking for those things means putting myself out there vulnerable to their rejection and possible ridicule and harm, and it feels much safer to just take it or act like I have it, or assume I have it (all of which, yes, can lead to disapointment and anger but I'm used to that so that doesnt seem as bad). It's like I don't feel I really have a right to ask for what I want or need and that is VERY risky anyway, so being sneaky about it seems safer. Then if I do get caught, I can simply deny what I was really up to and call them paranoid or something.


So I went ahead and did the "evil deed" w/o her knowledge or permission because that felt safer to me than just asking her or telling her I wanted to do it beforehand. Does that make sense at all? Does anyone else do this to this extreme like I do? Secrets, the "safer" alternative?

Hi LWH. I'm not sure what you want in our responses. So, I'm just going to give you my thoughts and hope that you take them in the way I intend-- to be contructive. Please remember this is all my opinion, take it or leave it.

It is really Scary to make one's self vunerable. Period. That is why it involves finding people worthy of your trust. To some degree, other's are also making themselves vunerable. So, to be keeping secrets.... maybe that is a violation of their trust? Without taking the risk of showing who you truly are to people (not *nocking them over the head and seeing if they stay*), but slowly building the relationship to the point where your walls can come down naturally, you are not giving them or you a chance. Maybe they can handle your secrets, just not right off the bat. Example: I used to tell anyone I first met (and sometimes still do) way too much info about me, my past, my 'crazyness'. I thought that if it didn't scare them away at first, then we could move forward and form a relationship. I now think that maybe this is backwards. That I need to get to know them, and them me, more superficially, gradually knowing more about one another. I would justify them leaving as an I knew I wansn't worthy kinda thing. Well, it wasn't that I was not worthy, I just overwhelmed them.


Maybe you can use some of the Radical Acceptance techniques to deal with this. Accept that they are responsible for what they say, and accept that you have to Trust it, not test it. I know that is hard. Baby steps.


Are you being manipulative? Can you trust yourself? Also, it may be 'just another way you operate' but I get the sense that you don't want to continue it. How can you think of ways to place yourself in situations where it would be unhelpful to keep secrets?


You do have the right to ask for what you want/need and only by asking will you get honest answers. It is risky, sometimes you will be told no. Move on. Why does being sneaky, and IMO, bieng dishonest to others by being sneaky seem 'safer' when the end result is you in turmoil?

From what I remember about your post with your T, she said she didn't mind if you recorded. Is this right?

I'm glad you are making this post and trying to untwist these behaviours! I know I exhibit some of them myself. Keep it up!

Well the whole process of gradually getting to know someone and someone to know me... I'll paste part of am email I wrote to my T last night that explains how I see this:

"And THIS is the part that terrifies me the most. This is why I have a hard time even STARTING that process, because I know it will or could possibly lead to sharing more and more and more until you become so totally consumed by the other person that you can’t ever escape from them and it’s like they now OWN you, mind, body and soul.

I know that you say I can decide how and when that happens, and on some level I understand that and agree. But as I told you, people can be very sneaky and manipulative and have you believing that they are OK and that I am OK and that everything is just OK, so you share a little more, then a little more...and then BAM!! One day it all blows up in your face as they take all of you, inside and out, and just shred it to pieces so small it takes a whole CSI unit many years to find all your pieces that are scattered so far and wide that it becomes hard to tell if you actually existed at all to begin with and who and what you were."

So you see, this is me, yes taking things to the extreme, but all this goes through my mind whenever someone says more to me than just "hello, how are you", and actually continues to converse with me.

And am I being manipulative when I do "sneaky" things with people, perhaps. I learned from the best how to do this (my now dead family), and NO I do not want to continue it, because while I'm doing it, I also see how wrong it is, how ineffective it is. Usually I don't tell people in some huge confession what I did like I did with T and the recording. The only reason I did with T is because as I told her, how can I expect her to be open and honest with me if I am not open and honest with her. I realize this is a two-way street with everyone, however with T I guess it's more important to me.

Being sneaky with people, keeping my secrets, etc does seem safer than just coming out and asking for what I want and need, because as I said somehow the risk of getting caught is less of a threat than facing possible rejection, riducule and hurt as a response to my asking. I had a sister that probably started me on this path because she had very sneaky, manipulative ways of getting me to tell her things, secrets... then whenever she'd get mad at me about something she would use my words as weapons to threaten me with, and hurt me with by telling others what I said. You'd think I would have learned the first time not to trust her, but I didn't because she was very good at getting me to tell her more and I kept believing her like an idiot. As I said, I learned from the best. The only difference is that I have never taken anything anyone has confided in me and used it as a weapon to theaten them with or used their words against them. My T says this is because I have a high sense of loyalty, and my sister did not, which I agree.

And no, T did not mind if I recorded, she was just concerned that I felt I had to hide it from her. But, it's what I do best.... hide things, hide what I do, I even hide good things I do.

Thanks again for your input, harmonium. I like to read your posts.

There are different levels in getting to know people and/or starting a friendship. You may meet someone that you have something in common with (e.g. music, sports, etc.). That is your common sharing ground. In these instances, you dont' have to reveal anything personal about yourself that you dont' want to share. I have friends on various levels like this. Some friends know a lot about me, others know little or nothing about my personal life. You have it in your control to share as much or as little as you wish. It's all up to you. Only YOU can allow someone to know things about you. I think you need to learn what boundaries are and how to set them with people. It might help you.

My biggest secret used to be that sometimes I needed help, and sometimes I just wanted help. I would call friends and ask for a ride to the grocery(no car at the time.) I didn't actually NEED any food, I WANTED companionship because I was terrified of being alone. Did I ever admit to a friend that I was lonely and would they please come hang out with me? Nope, I was too afarid they might say no. I wasn't "worth" being friends with, so I had to manipulate people into feeling sorry for me for companionship. All of this changed once I was diagnosed and found this place and the tools. I discovered, that once a person was a close friend, I WAS worth being with. People didn't say no all the time, and because I was less desperate, I was actually more fun to be with. Which led to more self confidence, which led to less manipulation, it became a healthy circle instead of a destructive one. But the first time you ask for companionship and they say no, it sucks. I cried for hours, going between I hate them, they hate me, I hate me. But as I started to learn how to work the five steps, untwist my thinking, and some of the self- harm tools I learned (I can do anything for a minute at a time) It bothered me less and less.

Sorry for rambling, you just made me think.

I agree with you Kari. For years, I didn't know HOW to be a friend. I was manipulative because I didn't believe people would really like me. I was very needy. Once I got more self-confidence I stopped being so needy and people were glad to be my friend. I like not being needy - I didn't like that part of myself.

I agree with the other posts so far in that this boils down to a self-esteem issue. Most of my issues do. There are good suggestions there, LWH.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "owning you". I inferr from your post that you are afraid that all 'secrets' told will eventually be used against you. IMO, no one 'owns' you unless you allow it. No matter what they know about you. I hear you saying that you understand that at least to some extent, this is under your control. However, by 'under your contol' I am worried that instead of choosing friends or confidants that have the same values as you (i.e. would not use secrets as weapons in any circumstance), you attach yourself to whomever will listen. This may not be the case, I am not making a judgement here, I am really asking if you are choosy about those whom you choose to share your innermost thoughts (potential weapons). I am also concerned that 'under your control' means that you drop them before they have the chance to drop you. There is a quote somewhere that says "if you haven't tried you can never succeed". I am also hearing you say that that when it blows up, you have no control over the fallout. I propose that you do. It is not what happens to us in life, but how we react to that stimuli that makes us who we are. You can choose to let some idiot ruin you for years, or you can recognize the situation for what it is. That they are trying to belittle you for their own empowerment, for whatever reason. The less you play into to that and allow that, the less they achieve their goal.

I also have taken everthing in my life to extremes. I have done what you are doing now, and sometimes still do. What helps me is to remember that everyone else is probably going through a similiar drama (maybe not the extreme) and they are doing the best they can. No one is perfect.

I learned to be sneaky from the best too. My family was filled with this behaviour--it was actually seen as a positive trait. But, it serves no good purpose in my life now. In fact, it caused undo stress in my life. So, I try to eliminate the behaviour and reduce the stress. If something, even something that has always 'worked' for me, no longer works or belongs in my healthy, happy life-- I choose to rid my life of the behaviour. No judgements on the past, no judgements on why or what caused. Just, it is not working now. I really try to live in the now with an eye on the future I wish to achieve.

I believe your T was upset because one of the basics of the therapudic relationship is creating a safe environment. If you did not feel safe enought to talk to her, she probably feels like she in some way did not accomplish this aspect of her job. I am not saying she did anything wrong--or you did. Sound like a miscommunication to me.

LWH, I would like to suggest that you go one month without secrets of any kind. I know that is SCARY and DIFFICULT. We will be there to help. Tell your T you want to do this, if in fact you do. Enlist support from those around you. Then do it. See how people react. Is it different than you imagined? I know for me, when I did this, I was shocked. I think I did not give other people enough credit. I think I did not give myself enough credit. You can do this, and the rewards (as in real relationships) are worth more that anything in the world!

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

I guess in this instance you have to be very sure who you are confiding in and what your boundaries are. Two years ago my best friend turned on me and we had a big problem. She "shared" some of my personal issues with other people. I had no idea she would ever do this. You just have to be careful, I think, who you share with. I am much more reticent now to share intimate details, mostly of my mental health. I have learned the hard way. But that doesn't stop me from making new friends. You don't have to share intimate details of your mental health life with everyone you meet. Most of my friends don't know my issues - I just choose not to share that part of my life with them. Then I can't be hurt.

I can relate to it being hard asking for what one wants/needs. Especially when related to the vulnerable parts. I remember wanting to ask someone advice, and being scared to do that. And being glad when he, who was aware of the situation I was wanting to ask advice about, saved me the trouble, after I approached him, of actually asking. I guess I don't have much to add, but, yeah, I can sympathize.

I'm thinking what you are talking about might be lack of boundaries between persons. Not knowing where one stops and the other begins. Sharing leads to intimacy, which leads to being entangled, lost in the other person.

And, the more we can know who we are, the more we can separate ourselves from others.

I do find that for me, it's different with different people. With some it's easy to see them as separate, with others, I'm more likely to get entangled.

If that's the kind of thing you are feeling, you could ask you T for guidance or suggestions or such, both as far as in that relationship with your T, and in relationships in general.

It just occured to me that you are describing 'sneaky' behaviours of others. So, are you pre-emtively sneaky? I mean, do you use sneaky behaviour because you are convinced that they will and you want to do it first? To have 'one up' on them?

I also agree with BG and EllenKMR in that boundries play a large role here. Define yours for you, then enforce them.

I hope all of this helps!!