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I thought I'd share a thought on why I don't ask others to leave me alone. Mostly, I don't ask others to do something I'd have trouble with. I'd have trouble remembering who wants me to leave them alone, and figuring out what kind of contact is okay.

Now, I may in some cases tell someone I'd like them to leave me alone. I've done that at least once here. But it's a communication of what I desire, not I request I expect them to fulfill just because I ask. I don't expect the other person to be better at leaving me alone than I would at leaving someone alone who asked it of me.

Instead, I create boundaries for myself. Like not reading posts, or not interacting, or whatever.

It's not so much about whether or not another person is willing to respect my wishes. (Though, while not so much here, there are times when I can expect the other person isn't willing to respect my wishes.) It's about not expecting someone to keep track of my wants.

Related to this, a certain musician I know notices me and looks at me during shows a lot more than I'd expect. Sometimes this has bothered me. I've never considered asking him not to, because in that situation, when he's on stage, it's not fair (esp to the other fans, actually) to ask him to be concerning himself with my emotional needs.

I think this all relates to space, and needing space from another. It's okay sometimes to want, even need, that. And even to voice that desire. But we need to be realistic when it comes to our expectations of others in giving us space. As well as, with that, taking responsibility for ourselves in obtaining the space we need.

In the case of the musician, I can choose not to go to a show, I can choose to look at other band members (have done that one a lot ). In that case of message board interactions, I can choose not to engage; I can be wise about how I engage. In emails and PMs I can delete a person's post unread.

But, I do think, in working out space issues with another person, it's good to keep realistic in the requests one makes for the other. Keeping in mind that we aren't the center of the other person's life.

I agree with you on this Ellen. Especially after some introspection lately. Sometimes, I will read the posts and not interact because whatever I think may not be productive or helpful to the other.

Sometimes, I just refuse to engage. That is a good boundary. It takes two to argue/fight about something and if I don't engage, who is the other one going to argue with?

I don't think I can tell another to "stay away from me, my posts, my threads" as I view that as censuring another. It seems to me that I'd be asking the other to tip toe around a forum that they have every right to just as I do.

Yeah, we all do need healthy space. If I need space, I can take a vacation from BPDR. I can keep myself away for awhile, for me.



Well said.

I don't like people in my "personal space" and there have been times I have reflectively smacked people (including close friends) in the face (yes, literally smacked them) when then got in my face. I can tell people to stay out of my personal space because it is not good for either one of us but I can't control whether or not they actually do so. Once they feel the sting of a smack (even though it was never intentional but reflexive) they tend to keep at arm's length without my needing to warn them further. I learned to keep a safe distance from people (my father even stuck out while he was asleep if you tried to wake him up at too close a distance) but not everyone has the same experiences as me. Some people truly do enjoy poking a sleeping bear (ironically, my father's nickname was "Bear") and they are going to keep doing it until they learn better. Perhaps the lesson needs to be painful to sink in because it will never get through on an intellectual level.

I have only tried setting a boundary with one person in my entire history at BPDR and I have learned that it is not effective. The very type of people who I need to set boundaries with are the very type that push other people's limits, so unfortunately I set myself up for failure. It is not something I am going to do again, not because I don't want to be left alone but because there is no way that I will get what I want in this situation. If it takes striking back at people to keep them at a distance, I am willing to try that tactic here. What I have seen is that people generally avoid those they see as threatening so my goal now is to be as threatening as possible in hopes of pushing someone as far away as possible. I don't like being mean but, if it serves my purpose, I suppose I can make the most of it to accomplish a specific goal.

Great post, Ellen. You have done a great job of manipulating yourself around in the greys to find workable and efficient solutions to life problems.

Ellen, apologizing in advance but I am going to respond to a post in your thread that isn't necessarily about what you are talking about, per se. I will try to direct it back to your message, or at least I hope to.

DB wrote:



That sounds abusive, Denim Blue. Abuse and striking another is bullying in my humble opinion. I don't think that is recovery oriented. I think that is an extreme solution when Ellen has pointed out some healthy, gray ones.

How bout you just stay away from one who bothers you? How bout when they try to engage you, you don't take the bait? How bout you just not read their posts?

Ellen said it well with this:

When I first started learning about boundaries, I remember reading that it's not always necessary to communicate your boundaries to others. It took me a while to figure out what that meant and why it might benefit me not to communicate my boundaries. Now I realize that leaving people alone by not reading their posts or not interacting with them is a great example of a boundary that doesn't need to be communicated. I can just do it, and then if I decide to relax my boundary, it's not as awkward to resume contact as it might be if I'd made a big, dramatic "leave me alone" announcement. Same thing goes for taking a break from an online forum. I just take the break that I need, then come back when I please. No muss, no fuss, no drama.

EmJay

If you think I am an abusive bully, I can be that for you and live up to your expectations. I can take on the labels and wear them if that would be helpful. I can work on bothering people enough that they leave me alone because that becomes their only option for dealing with people who demonstrate inappropriate behavior. If that would be effective, I am willing to give it a try. If my behavior causes others to "walk on eggshells" around me but it gives me the space I need, that works for me! Why should I care about anyone but myself anyway?

Let's allow Ellen to process this topic without making it all about me, though, okay? I am participating in the thread because I relate to the topic just like everyone else who participates in a thread so it is not about me. I have apparently been unsuccessful at doing the whole "ignore" thing because I have not found it effective. My post was about this part of what Ellen shared:



I have learned that ignoring behavior and asking a person to give me space does not work so I am looking at ways I can take responsibility and have control in the situation. I am no longer asking the other person to consider what I want, I am instead going to do what I feel would be effective in reaching my goal.

I agree with EmJay. I find that if I am having a difficult time with someone, I can not read their posts or respond to them. I don't have to tell them that. Then when and if I feel differently later on, I can have contact with them. Some times what a person writes may bother me, but at other times I'm okay with them. Boundaries can be in our own heads.

Denim, I'm not here talking about physical space. I suppose the same ideas apply to physical space, but it's not what I was thinking of with the word "space". It's hard to describe what I mean. But hopefully indicating that literal physical space is not what I meant helps clarify what I meant.

It's okay to talk about physical space needs. But it's a little different that what I was saying, and I don't really have any thoughts on that.

Emotional space, I guess is a good label for it. Which hopefully will make it clear for those who understand the idea, but I don't think helps describe it for those who don't.

This is all I have time to write right now. Time to get back to work.

hey ellen, good points.

i learned by looking into myself i was copping out by asking someone to not speak to me. if i am uncomfortable with someone, i should face it and own it. not ask them to do anything. i was doing a complete avoid taking responsibilities for my own shit in it. i was wrong. i wont do it again.

we are adults here. we can act it. thus, i wont ask that again of anyone.

i like your points.

and for the record, im not afraid any longer of anyone. not physically, not gut, nothing.


jody standing tall.....

Okay, here I am again. (I've time, it's slow.)

I'm surprised by the number of replies.

Okay, I see how the topic of physical space was brought up in relationship to board interactions. I kind of tend to think the analogy doesn't apply. It's a different situation.

Unlike the physical space around me, my emotional or mental space is under my control. I can choose who to let in or not. Once I have solid personal boundaries, a solid sense of who I am, people enter my emotional/mental space because I in some sense choose to let them in. If I want to make the choice to not let them in, I can.

That's not so true with physical space. If someone invades my physical space, I can't remove them from my space by ignoring them. If someone stands very close to me, too close by my viewpoint, and I ignore them, they are still standing that close. Ignoring doesn't remove them from my physical space.

But with emotional space, I can, in ignoring, not let them into my emotional or mental space. They aren't taking up space in my mind. I'm not spending feelings on them. (Spending feelings -- there's an interesting turn of phrase. )

So, while the idea of pushing someone away, or hitting them, or such, can be brought from the idea of physical space to that of emotional/mental space, still, with emotional/mental space, there are other options that don't exist when someone gets in our physical space.

Wow, that was more profound than I expected when I began writing this.

Denim, just one more those specifically for you on what you wrote.

You wrote: "I have learned that ignoring behavior and asking a person to give me space does not work..."

Those are actually two different things. And your choice of the word "does" (rather than "do") suggests you are seeing them as one thing.

If I ask someone to leave me alone, I am not ignoring that person. As I said, I don't generally ask that. Not so much because I've found it doesn't work, but because I don't expect it to work. Though I suppose we are more or less in agreement on it not working.

Ignoring someone may or may not have any effect on the other person's behavior. I can't control the other person. I don't try to. But I can control me, and ignoring is about what goes on inside me head. By ignoring them, I can let it not affect me. No, it won't work with those who are physically in your personal space. Then again, maybe an analogy from physical space will fit well.

If someone is too close to you, and you choose not to deal with them, you may choose to walk away. Perhaps, in board interactions, we can think of it as walking away. Yes, I kind of like that analogy.

Oops... missed proofreading parts of this. Corrections in italics. (The 2nd one is minor, but the first may have been confusing.)

I agree with you Ellen - this is great stuff.

In RL, if someone is in my face, I can ask them to please step away (boundary of mine) and then let go of the outcome as I cannot control another. If that someone does not move out of my space, I can move ME. If there is a reason that prohibits my being able to get away from the other in my space, there are other mental adjustments that I can make for myself. Because, yes, I can control me but not the other.

I think that can be applied on here, as well - walking away. There isn't much on here that dictates I have to stay and put up with someone in my face on here. I can leave BPDR for a while. I can not post or react to that person's posts. I can avoid reading a thread that they started. I can disagree, in my head, with what the other posted about. Roll my eyes, if I want to, then move on. The other owns their behavior; I own mine.

(Eating disorders can disturb and trigger me because of an Ol' Sis who had/has bulimia. She'd eat the good stuff in the house and then purge. That really used to piss me off because then the good food was gone and I had little to eat. True story. I was a HUGE sore spot in our family when I was growing up. I stay away from the ED thread. That is what I can control.)

Ooops, no, meant to say IT was a HUGE sore spot in our family - my other siblings would be upset, too. As well as our Mom cuz she was the one buying all the food and to have it be, well, wasted like that...

Ellen, yes, you are making really good points here.

(Sorry if my personal example veered off.) This is about YOU and what you are learning and I think it is good stuff! Thank you for starting this thread.

I think that the friend/foe feature will help me be more successful in this area in the future.

I grew up in New York City, one of the most populated and crowded places on earth. I learned from the time I was a little kid that we had to protect what little personal space we had. When we walked down the street, we looked straight ahead, not making too much eye contact (you never knew who you'd make eye contact with - they might be "crazy" people). When riding on the subway, we were often crowded in like sardines, sometimes with some creepy man rubbing up against me. So I had to create the sense of space and boundaries in my head. It was the only way.

Now I don't need to do that too much anymore. But I am learning about boundaries. I don't need them too much in RL. There really isn't anyone who bothers me enough to put those boundaries into place. One person I did have to place boundaries with was my sister and it seems to have worked. She doesn't call me as much as she used to and we get along better now.

Again, as far as the board goes, I can keep my boundaries in my head. I don't like asking people to not bother with me. It makes me feel bad. So I can choose not to respond to them (I admit, I haven't been very good about that lately). But I do have the choice. I don't have to respond to posts that bother me. I do have that power. I just need to learn that I indeed do have it and implement it.

The boundaries we put in place are for us, not the other. We just need to do what we need to do. We don't have to attack anyone or say anything inflammatory to them. I can choose to ignore someone, but still remain civil to them. Body language and eye contact can convey that message too. We just have to stick to our guns if we want to maintain that control.

It can work because I've seen it work. I've implemented these boundaries and they can work fine. We just have to remember that they're for us and we don't have to act out. It's more effective to remain calm and stable and in control. It sends a stronger message.