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The following is quoted from the book: On becoming a person by Carl Rogers and it pretty much sums up where I'm at in the psychotherapy process:

Quote:

You know, I feel as if I'm floating along on the current of life, very adventurously, being me. I get defeated sometimes, I get hurt sometimes, but I'm learning that those experiences are not fatal. I don't know eaxctly who I am, but I can feel my reactions at any given moment, and they seem to work out pretty well as a basis for my behaviour from moment to moment. Maybe this is it what it means to be me. But of course I can only do this because I feel safe in the relationship with my therapist. Or could I be myself this way outside of this relationship? I wonder. I wonder. Perhaps I could.

I see myself at this stage of testing out "just being myself" outside of the therapy room. Living from moment to moment, using my feelings as a guide from moment to moment, as to how to behave. I can still go from 0-60 in a second at times, and sometimes react to that; but basically I seem to know to stop and to self-reflect and that I can get back to baseline fairly quickly. I've dealt with a few uncomfortable situations this week both in real life and here at BPDR and have done so relatively smoothly because I'm trusting my being more.

I'm into this I wonder, I wonder, Perhaps I could stage. Perhaps I have come as far as I can go with therapy. I think I've finally gotten over the "I want to be cured" scenario and can settle for being "equipped to handle whatever life throws my way." I think I've moved on from "my life was so bad, I want to be perfectly free of problems" to a more balanced view: It's basically good but, sometimes shit happens.

Lately I have been thinking about cutting back my therapy, as I find myself handling more and more of lifes upheavals amazingly well and without much support, but then I feel fear, and then I feel sad. My head is not in line with my feelings. I can't muster up the courage to say "hey, let's start winding things down." I start looking for more issues to deal with.

My relationship with my T feels healthy. I've worked through all of the over-attachment, overly-dependent & overly-needy stages. She's somebody I can trust when I'm with her (I feel safe to just be myself), but I am completely independent of her the remainder of the week. I no longer immediately think of her when I have a problem. I go straight to my own inner resources and handle it.

Is it normal to feel some fear and apprehension about cutting back? Now that I no longer have this unrealistic goal of "perfectly cured" how do you know when enough is enough? I know that I can cut back slowly. I know that I can keep in touch with my T after therapy is finished. I know that I can go back anytime if I feel that I need it. It doesn't just come to screeching halt.

I guess I'm just curious as to whether everybody feels some apprehension about cutting back and ending therapy or is this something unique to people who form attachments to their T?

If a person has been going to therapy for an extended period of time, I think anyone might have apprehension at going it alone. Personally, I didn't feel apprehension at cutting back and finally stopping therapy, because I know my T is there and will see me if the need arises. So, I take baby steps of handling things on my own with the knowledge that if things get rough, I can go back. It's not black and white. It's not in therapy, out of therapy. I guess I see it as a continuum and that helps with the apprehension.

I actually have a book that is about when to stop seeing a therapist but I haven't read it yet because my problem is more with sticking with therapy long enough to see the benefits. If I have a chance to look at it, I can let you know if there is any insight that seems appropriate to share with you. Basically you will need to go with your feelings on this, though. If you are feeling like you can manage just as well without seeing your therapist, then it is probably time to cut back and see how you feel about that and then go from there.

I think it was slightly different for me, because I didn't form such a strong attachment to my T.

I found that from time to time, we'd run out of things to talk about, and I didn't like paying £40 a session to sit in silence, so I'd take a break at that point and come back when an issue cropped up that I needed help with.

The last time I took a break, when problems cropped up I realised I was coping with them just fine on my own! So I didn't go back.

However, I'm now going back after a year without therapy. A lot's been thrown at me in the last few months and I am starting to find it difficult to cope, so it makes sense to get some professional input with it.

It's definitely worth bearing in mind that you can always go back if you need to. I didn't get that option with NHS therapy - they'd decide when I'd had "enough" and I didn't get much say in the matter - then if I got ill again, the layers of bureacracy would mean it took ages to be able to see someone again. I think it's really helped me to move forwards just knowing that that source of help is always there for me should I need it.

Y'know, I think it's considered ideal to form some type of attachment to a counselor/therapist, Amanda. Trusting someone, especially trusting them with precious stuff like the short-comings of our lives and our desires to be 'better', has been key for me. I have to trust that they know what they are doing and that my wellbeing is primarily the focus of the time they spend with me. So, yes - fear and anxiety play a big part when considering changing a relationship that has impacted me [...I was going to say "impacted me 'for the better'" but realize that even changing anything about aNy relationship generates apprehension!].

Any kind of change makes for unsettling feelings, at least for me, at least initially. Think about it - going to school, moving out from parents' home, driving alone for the first time... It's perfectly normal to feel apprehensive about something that feels 'different' - even good stuff!

Somewhat like Marga, since my initial treatment that went on for several years, there've been times when I see someone more intensely than my current every-3-months med-check.


I suggest you not think this situation to death... Just decide to change your weekly sessions to bi-weekly (or is that bi-monthly? I never get that right!) and see how that goes for a while. Then explore if you'd like to change the frequency further either way.
What do you think?

~ jr

Thanks for sharing how it was for you Trinity.

Denim - would be interested to know the name of the book so I can get some ideas. My T just tells me that my head and my heart will be in agreement and I will know that the time is right.

Marga - Ok if I was running out of stuff to talk about, I could see that as a good reason to cut back. Sometimes, I do arrive there and I haven't got a whole load to work on that particular week, but usually once we get started there is loads. I will bear that in mind.

jr - You're saying just do it? Feel the fear and do it anyway? Seems to be a re-current theme for me (seeing as I am diagnosed with an anxiety disorder) to come face to face with something new, but put the breaks on because of fear.

My closest friend who knows me better than anyone seems to think that once again I am running away. She seems to think that Amanda is getting too close to an issue (that T and I have been probing) that terrifies me, so rather than face that, I am trying to find reasons to cut back and quit. There may well be some truth in that (the fact that I have been stuck going round and round in circles with this issue for long time, too afraid to break out of the circle.) Something else for me to think about.

I am diagnosed with anxiety disorder, too.
fwiw, I have a magnet on my fridge that says "Do one thing every day that scares you." That doesn't necessarily entail therapy, though!
Especially if this is true:

I was only responding to the questions regarding your apprehension about cutting back on your therapy. I think you might get extra anxious if you sensed you were 'running' from something, eh?

~ jr

This works for me, Amanda. I was afraid to go in the bank, to go to a restaurant, to go outside even. I forced myself to go anyway, and even vomited in the parking lot. I knew nothing was going to happen to me, not in reality. And after I did it, I wasn't afraid of it anymore. I still do this, if I am afraid, I force myself to do it anyway. It works for just about any situation. I have found that it's a state I put myself in that prevents me from growing. It's so easy to just say, "Oh, I'm not gonna try this because I am afraid." But if I just allow the fear to happen (as I am doing it), next time, it isn't so scary anymore, and before you know it, it's easy to do.

Finding reasons to quit because of dealing with something I don't want to face? Oh, THAT I defintely relate to. I've run away because a T pointed out I was enabling my H to drink. Ooh, can't have that!

If you're facing something difficult or deep right now with your T, I'm guessing this wouldn't be the right time to cut back. Is your friend right? Are you afraid of something you're working through right now?

Is my fear about cutting back? or is it fear that I might be cutting back too soon? Hmmmmm Both, I think. Much of the time I'm doing pretty ok with day to day life, and don't need much outside assistance to get through the week. But we're both aware of an underlying issue that I have with anger which "she says" isn't going to go away until I chose to embrace it rather than to keep shoving it down and not owning it. I've got a feeling that anger and anxiety can be inter-related somehow. I've been going round and round in circles with it forever and I wonder if it's just one of those things I will never solve. So, It's pointless to keep going over it and over it.

My friend, like my T sees it as something I need to resolve and my friend is concerned that I am thinking about quitting to run away from dealing with the anger issue. She went as far as telling me that she is worried about me - See, I was in a pretty out of it, rather dissociated state on Wednesday after a gruelling 90 minute EMDR session and I was saying stuff that really troubled her that she thinks needs to be dealt with further. Problem is, I can't remember a whole lot about what was said and so have nothing to work with unless it comes up again. The fact that I can't remember might indicate it is something I'm afraid to face. Then again, it could just mean that whatever I was experiencing at the time has been dealt with in that moment and I let it go? If she could perhaps stop being so evasive and let me in on what it was that I said that troubled her so much, then I might have something more to work with.

Aqua - I have been there too - unable to leave home, unable to work, unable to answer the phone, open the curtains, or allow anyone into my home. I have over the past few years faced the fears (with the help of medication) and gotten mylife back somewhat. I still often find myself in that I feel afraid situation, but I can challenge it and do it anyway, with many things but, not everything.

Thanks for your thoughts.

The book is titled When to Say Goodbye to Your Therapist by Catherine Johnson, PhD. and this is what it says on the back cover:

"Determining when you should leave therapy is never easy, and saying goodbye is always painful. Whether you've been in therapy for six weeks or six years, Catherine Johnson will help you evaluate your progress, decide whether it's time to leave and, if it is, will give you the support to call it quits. Solid research along with helpful anecdotes and case studies shed light on:
* Typical ups and downs in a patient's relationship with a therapist
* Taking stock - determining whether you are stuck in therapy , or have gotten as much out of it as you can
* Counterproductive patient-therapist relationships
* The money you spend on therapy, and what it means to you and your therapist
* Making your decision to leave - and sticking with it
* Coping with your feelings of loss and sadness after quitting
If you feel you've fallen into a "therapy trap," When to Say Goodbye to Your Therapist will help you take an impartial look at your progress, and will give you the resources to leave when the time is right."

The books costs $.26 on Amazon.com but then there is an additional cost of shipping to purchase the book. I found it second hand but it is possible it might be something a library has for check-out even.



I have reached a point in my own therapy where I have decided to try talking about the symptoms of DID and it is not something I have been able to do before. I told my therapist today how I get angry with her when she brings it up (I told her that I wanted her to tell me I don't have DID but she said she can't do that) and at the same time I understand that I probably do have DID, no matter how much I don't want it to be true, so I am trying to figure out how to deal with that possibility. From my own experience, I wonder if your feelings of anger are a cue to you that there is something you need to work on but that you have a high level of resistence about and you therefore want to avoid dealing with something you find upsetting to even think about. The fact that a close friend has mentioned her feeling that avoidance could be the case for you would makes it an even stronger possibility because sometimes it takes people outside of ourselves to see things we don't allow ourselves to see. Maybe you can resolve to leave therapy once you have made it through this final issue.

I am going to be meeting every other week with my therapist and then taking the summer off because my insurance only covers 20 visits and I have already used 8 of them this year. I have Medicare but it only covers half the cost so it will end up costing me $40 a session when my insurance runs out. It will be much easier for me to quit therapy when it is something I can't pay for because I won't even have the option of staying if I can't afford to pay my therapist. I am trying to stretch out my remaining appointments so I may have to go to once a month after the summer is over.

Hi Amanda!

Although I have personally seen you make huge strides over the last year or so, based on the information you've posted, I would suggest that you not quit therapy yet. The fact that you somewhat decompensated/dissociated in connection with the EMDR session seems to indicate that there is still something of major importance that has not been fully addressed or resolved with you. Since you have been thinking about quitting therapy at the same time this has happened makes it likely that you may be using avoidance as a coping mechanism to protect yourself from having to face this issue. I would not suggest pushing yourself to explore this issue too deeply too quickly, as the dissociation is an indicator that you aren't able to handle the fallout. But leaving therapy in order to avoid the issue may not be a good idea either. So. . . I guess my suggestion is that you stay in therapy and chip away at this important issue, but do so in stages, so as not to get so overwhelmed.

Denim - Thanks for the book details.



According to my friend I said stuff like: I believe that I shouldn't be here (I should be dead.) I wasn't wanted here in the first place and if I get angry about that then I have even more reason to be dead. If a child retaliates against those who were meant to care for them, they may as well as kill themselves because they will be dead anyway. Anger = death whether I am the one on the receiving end or the one expressing it.

This is pretty intense, deep stuff and I had no idea that beliefs like this existed in me. I knew that I thought anger was bad because if I allowed myself to feel angry, I'd become just like my abusers. I have dissociated and disconnected from my anger from way back and I'm having a difficult time re-integrating this aspect of my personality. Mainly because I want to "cut it out of me" rather than own it. I still am resisting the ownership and need for such an emotion.

Otherwise I feel I'm ready to leave therapy. These are not new thoughts. Have been toying with it for a while. Interesting that it came up loudly in context with me having EMDR and obviously a large amount of continued processing after the fact.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Perhaps more EMDR? Anyway thanks for your thoughts.

One idea. Perhaps finding role models of people who deal with anger in a healthy way will help you see that having and recognizing anger does not make you just like your abusers.

Amanda, I understand how anger at others ends up coming back at ourselves because we are unable to express anger towards those people we feel we owe our lives to (for my father, a birth certificate was a title of ownership so that he could choose to "take [me] out of the world" just as he "brought [me] into the world" by giving me life). I think my becoming suicidal as a young child was a response to my father's threats because if I killed myself, then he would not be able to kill me (in painful ways that scared me more than dying). When I was hurt, the most comforting thought I had was thinking about dying from my injuries and not having to live with the pain anymore. When I first learned that I was being "abused" my reaction was how "unfair" it was that other "abused" kids got to die and I had to live! That "unfairness" is what made me angry more than the way I was treated because I didn't know that I should have been treated any differently than I was treated by the people who were responsible for raising me. I just wanted to stop hurting and dying seemed like the way to go about it.

Dealing with childhood abuse is one of those things that brings up anger and I have never felt comfortable with expressing anger against anyone but myself, which is probably the root of my SI. I went though years where I could not even say the word "abuse" because it meant that I was such an evil child that my father would be angry enough at me to treat me in abusive ways or that I was so bad that I had willingly engaged in sexual behavior in order to avoid being physically abused. I never considered the suggestions that I did not deserve to be abused because I thought my father was justified in the ways he used "discipline" to correct my behavior and the ways he demonstrated his "love" for me. That is probably why there is that third category called "psychological abuse" - it is what makes the other forms of abuse (physical and sexual) seem deserved.

You are going to be angry and it is not easy to release anger in "healthy" ways. You have learned to stuff anger or let it out against yourself while you have not learned how to be angry at other people without the fear of losing self-control. I recall the blind rages my father went in and I know that I am just as capable of doing the same thing. I think that is why I am "triggered" by people who can't control their feelings - I see them as dangerous and I want nothing to do with them. It is a good thing that you have self-control and yet there are times you need to release your anger and not hold it in against yourself. I am sure your therapist could help you with this but you need to know that it will not be pretty and you will probably feel angry and ashamed at yourself if you manage to "get in touch with" your anger.

I know that you have been looking into winding down your therapy for awhile now so I don't think that the only reason you are looking at ending therapy is to avoid this issue. At the same time, it might not hurt to give yourself some time to get though this issue with someone you have a high level of trust with because it is not something that you will be able to do with just anyone. I personally think that you will have a better sense of being "done" with therapy once you have worked through this issue with your therapist but you need to do what you feel is right for yourself.

I am so relating to what you describe - the psychological abuse that confirmed to me that I deserved to be treated the way I was treated; and not even really even knowing that it was abuse because it was just the way we lived. I mean I knew it hurt, but I thought everybody who was bad was treated this way. I never dared tell anyone because I thought if they knew how bad I was, they'd hurt me too.The fact that I strongly believe that I have a core self who is evil and bad or why else would they treat me so badly? Whenever I'm told (usually by my T) that I have a million reasons to feel angry, I question her - do I really? I get scared when I even begin to think that it could be true.

I don't give myself permision to feel angry and I've never really understood what my fear was about expressing anger. I'm picking this has something to do with the stuff I was babbling the other day when I was in the "out of state." I'm kind of troubled by this because I haven't decomposed like that for months. Not sure what's going on there? I guess I'm somewhat dissappointed with myself that I wasn't more grounded and aware of what was happening for me. If I could only remember what I was saying and how I was feeling at the time. I know it must have been scary because my friend couldn't believe that I told her that "I had no right to exist."

Maybe I'm not ready to leave therapy. Maybe I am? I really thought I was getting close and I had kind of decided that the anger & "I am bad" issue wasn't going to get any better (I've been spinning my wheels on it for months.) My T suggested the EMDR. Maybe now I have something more to work with (or at least the bits my friend told me?) I'm not sure if I want to quit therapy or not? I live my day-to-day life on a fairly steady level (no rapid mood swings, rarely getting triggered by anything, dealing with whatever comes my way as it arises) and isn't this the goal? Happy, healthy living in the moment? I'm basically already there. I don't see how digging into old feelings of anger is going to augment that in any way. I guess maybe I'm saying, enough of the psychotherapy, and let's focus on life in the moment. Or am I just too afraid of delving into that anger? Aggghghhhh the contradictions I find in myself!

Ellen - That would be a good idea, but I don't know many healthy role models of anger. To be honest, I have difficulty even recognising anger unless it is loud yelling or abusive, violent behaviour. I don't believe that I would recognise "healthy expressions of anger" it if I saw it. This could be something for me to look at.

I don't know if there is any way you can convince your logical mind that you are not evil and then allow that logical part to reason with the rest of you. For example, my father told me that I was born with the "evil eye" and that I was a witch. I saw evidence of this and took it as the truth so that I believed it without questioning. Now that I have had my cataract eye surgery (I was born with congenital cataracts, which I assume to be the manifestation of the evil eye), I can believe that I no longer have the "evil eye" because the cataracts in both eyes have been removed and replaced with artificial lenses. I had tried deliverance in the past to rid myself of evil and I had too much "resistance" to get the full benefit of the spiritual counseling. I no longer practice witchcraft or use extra sensory skills I developed as a child and so I can convince myself that I am no longer a witch either. It would not have mattered how many people told me that I don't have the evil eye while I still had the congenital cataracts or that I wasn't a witch while I was using paranormal "gifts" to do things that made me feel more powerful, I would have continued to believe those things were true just as much as I believe there is a God because I have experienced God in a real way. I still believe in Satan and I know that I was "married" to Satan when I was seven but I also know that the blood of Jesus has covered over my blood signature in Satan's book and that my name is in the book of life instead. I hope I don't sound too "preachy" because I am using this as an example of my own spiritual healing and not suggesting you need to have the same spiritual beliefs I have.

I am sure that in your therapy, Carolle has told you many times that you are not bad or evil and that you did not deserve to be abused (I have heard it many times myself by various therapists and friends) and yet I suspect the message has not been able to make it through to your core beliefs because those beliefs that you are bad and evil were so strongly ingrained into who you are as a person. It is hard to believe something for so long and then to stop believing it without somehow "disproving" those things we thought were true. Only you can change your beliefs and you have to be able to "prove" that the opposite is true for yourself.

I know for myself, I will never believe that I am not a "bad" person but I can see my "bad" qualities in the context of also having "good" qualities that make me a "good" person. I believe that when I do "bad" things, I deserve to be punished and so I don't think I will ever get to a place where I believe that the abuse was "bad" when it was intended as discipline for "bad" behavior. What I try to do is put that in the past and not dwell on it so that I can look at the person I am in the present without carrying around all the rest of the baggage. I don't know if it would be best for you to "let go" of the past or to look at it in a different context, but hopefully you and your therapist will find a way to work though it somehow.

When you stated that you "had no right to exist" after the EMDR session, you may have been speaking from a place where you were hearing that message in your head (as thoughts or "voices" of some kind that could have been in the present or in the past). I still "hear" my father chanting "burn the witch" along with my own "voice" saying the same thing when I try taking a hot shower (he would burn me in the shower so I still have a fear of showers to this day). I have somehow taken my father's words and internalized them as my own words and I continue to use them against myself that way. Could this be what is happening for you? Do you think someone ever told you that you "had no right to exist" when you were a child and that you believed them so that you are now saying it to yourself?

Maybe instead of thinking about whether or not you are "ready" to leave therapy, you can allow yourself to make the decision to leave therapy when you are feeling ready.

I know when I get upset or angry at myself, I feel I have no right to exist. I don't know where that comes from. I was not abused as a child, but my T says that I treat myself worse than anybody else ever could or would. So I have to learn to treat myself with more kindness and respect (that's why getting the massage yesterday was such a big deal for me).

Also, I'm an identical twin, and was born 2nd. The doctor didn't know I was in there. He left after my sister was born and they had to call him back to get me out. So my sister used to tell me when we were little and she was mad at me, that I "shouldn't be here." Maybe I internalized that. It's 50/50 that I was born 2nd - it could easily have been her. Even today I was thinking "who would feel bad if I died?" I thought that and I'm not even depressed right now! So it's this internalized dialogue we have with ourselves. Maybe we have to learn to really, truly respect ourselves as valuable human beings and that we are not here to please anyone or are at anyone's whim. We have every right to exist just like anyone else does. We are important and we matter.

So the fact exists that it doesn't really matter whether people think we're evil or damaged or whatever. We have to know the inner truth about ourselves. I personally don't believe babies are born evil. I believe all babies are pure. Any "evil" that is put on us is put on us by adults who are damaged. Or we find ourselves in situations that cause us stress and depression and fear. So we have to re-learn what our place is here on Earth and that we're not bad people. We're just reacting to difficult situations we found ourselves in. I think the very fact that we're here is a good thing.

I battle this every day. I try to do "good" things and help people as much as I can. I probably treat other people better than I treat myself. So my job now is to learn how to be nicer to myself. What in G-d's name am I still punishing myself for? My H loves me so much and I still think that if I died, he'd be better off. But if I ever told him that, he'd have a fit. So I must have some value to him.

I have to stop now. I can go on and on.

Hi Denim & BG - Appreciate you guys trying to help but, I think I'm getting into something too deep here; that untwising and CBT alone isn't going to help with. I'm finding the whole topic quite unsettling and I know I'm getting way of track from using the tools, so am going to call it a day.



This is what Karolle keeps telling me. I will know it is time when I both "think" and "feel" that I am ready to leave. When there is congruency between my thoughts and my feelings. Right now they are still a million miles apart. It could well be that this "anger" issue is what's holding my "feelings" back from being ready to quit.

It sounds like you have a wise therapist!

P.S. I did not intend to spell her name incorrectly. I think I mixed it up with Coalle, LOL.