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I have noticed that whenever someone expresses disgruntlement or a thought that isn't complimentary or validating of what is happening on the board, a lot of times they are told they might want to leave. I find that this is a "well, here it is, and if you don't like it, leave", instead of a, "well, your ideas might lead to growth for me, so I might consider what you have said, and try to understand and meet you somewhere on that." What other messages could we give others, that might be a little more validating and understanding that they have a reason to be disgruntled, other than telling them they might want to leave the board? And do you think that is showing empathy for them or their situations or perspectives?

Why the loaded subject heading? No one has been told to leave. And you make no mention in your post of anyone being told to leave. You're actual post doesn't overstate things this way. So why do so in the subject heading?

Look inward, Aqua. As Ellen said, nobody has been asked to leave.

It takes more than one to Tango. Maybe take some of your own suggestions for others and think about applying them to your own posts.

Why not take a breath and sit back and just read the threads and think about your reactions to them before posting.....(and the real reasons behind you finding yourself so upset with "The Board"....)

I know, for myself, that just 'sitting' with the feelings and mulling them over may give me a completely different outlook.

Good luck on your journey, Aqua. (I bet, in time, you'll see things differently).
God Bless
Steff

Ok, foolish me, maybe I might've said "suggesting that people leave the board." But it's still a valid point.

And now I suppose since I corrected my mistake, that someone will say I wasn't being true to my word, or something like that. No, I see I made a mistake, it was more of a suggestion than a tell.

But I did not me JUST me, I meant that this is an occurrence I have seen over and over again. I am not seeing it as much of a personal thing, as much as I am seeing it as an ineffective thing.

Why did you wonder? Because I never would've thought to ask anyone that...and I'm just curious as to why you would wonder about what you assumed to be a loaded subject heading.

Take BPDR out of the equation.

Imagine we're all sitting in Burger King. Someone walks in and says "I want a burger" and the person behind the counter says "Sure, we have those, which one would you like?" The customer says "I want a Big Mac" to which the counter person has to say "I'm sorry, we don't offer that type of burger here. Would you like a Whopper or a Double Western Burger instead?" Now the customer gets upset, "Dammit, you said you had burgers and the burger I want is a Big Mac so give me a Big Mac!!"

Would we expect the person behind the counter to say "Okay, well, we've never served a Big Mac before but if you give us some time, we will consider your request"?

Or would we expect the person behind the counter to say "I'm really sorry but we really cannot give you a Big Mac but there's a restaurant right over there that can give you what you want. Perhaps you should ask them for a Big Mac; I'm sure you'll get better results."

We don't want people to leave, let alone leave unhappy. But we can only give what we can. We are what we are. BPDR cannot be all things to all people. After seven years, this is the menu and there are still possibilities for menu tweaks but we will never convert from Burger King to Taco Bell or McDonald's.

Complaining that BPDR isn't giving a person what they really want isn't the most effective course of action. It's a waste of effort on the complainers part. It's a bit annoying to the rest of the group. And the core place where the expectations need to be adjusted lies within the complainer rather than with the board.

I've seen, over those seven years, plenty of folks who say "This place just isn't doing it for me anymore" only to see them come back with adjusted expectations. They no longer expect BPDR to be some paragon of healthy virtues and they don't look to BPDR to be something it cannot be. Instead, they return knowing that they can use BPDR as a place to work through any remaining troublesome areas, deal with a minor crisis and get support or to work with one particular issue.

Those are the people who are (IMO) the happiest. They've come to realize and accept what BPDR is and its limitations. They know that if they want a Big Mac, they won't get it here. If they want something and think we might be able to provide it but find out we can't, it's no longer the end of the world. They've adjusted their expectations so that it's not a huge deal and they're able to look within themselves to find the answer or find it at someplace where those answers are plentiful.

Makes sense.

Aqua:

I often get the feeling that the 'good' or the 'contrary to the posited point', doesn't get pointed out or at least 'allowed for' and/or seemingly factored in when these kinds of assertions are made.

For example, in our recent exchange, you said you were leaving BPDR and asked to be banned, yet, even in the 'heat' of that spirited discussion, I tried to invite/encourage you to reconsider and to let you know that I think you have a lot to contribute and are welcome at BPDR, etc..

Here's part of that exchange:

I just think that things aren't as all-or-nothing/black-and-white as sometimes we may see them, ya know.

Thank you Ash for your reply. This is exactly what happened to me. I was having "issues" with the board so I left. I kept reading posts though, and learning from them. I had a cooling-off period and it worke. I am back now, and able to see things from a different, better perspective. Besides reading the board and learning from it, certain things happened to me in RL that helped me along too.

We are all here voluntarily. The board is what it is. If we cannot adapt, then we have a few choices. But I dont' believe or expect BPDR to bend to my wishes and desires. It was set up long before I came along. I appreciate it being here and I hopefully will continue to learn and grow from being here.

If I recall, I'm someone who it was suggested that I leave the board.

(If I recall. I can't tell you anymore than I vaguely remember it happening, but I'm pretty sure my recollection is accurate.)

While, as you can see, I'm still here (somewhat), I DID (somewhat) take the suggestion. What I needed to move forward, I wasn't getting here. BPDR was holding me back because the focus here wasn't what it needed to be for me.

And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not going to go to a cardiologist to ask about an ingrown toenail. And while mental health might get one big umbrella- the different and various issues ARE different and need to be handled differently.

I'm another one who recalls having had the "BPDR is not for everyone speech" because it seemed incomprehensible to some how CBT could possibly be used in conjunction with psychotherapy (specifically attachment & transference based therapy.) I'm another who is still here. Personally, I don't believe that CBT is the "whole answer." I don't think any one single modality by itself, is, but CBT does have it's uses for me in some situations. For me, it was a matter of adjusting my expectations of this place. Using the food analogy - I wanted a variety of nutrition to be on offer - but learned to accept that there was only "one meal" on offer here, and if I wanted to eat something else, then I needed to go elsewhere to get that. I believe that I have been successfully able to reconcile the different approaches to treatment, and get what I need from both. If it was solely healthy role models that I was looking for, I don't think a "mental health" board could meet that need for me.

I don't think it is the "constructive criticism" that is met with a "there's the door, don't let it slam you in the ass on your way out" sort of sentiment. It is the repeated "I want this and I want that" that tends to be met with a general dismissive attitude once it is apparent that it is in everyone's best interests for the person making unreasonable demands to leave so everyone is not held hostage to that person's demands.

I have only really seen the suggestion that "if BPDR is not the right place for you, you do have other options" sort of approach used, much as there have been times I would have preferred to see the leadership team tell someone to literally "take a long walk off a short plank" so that the message would sink in more clearly, LOL. I have been told that if BPDR is not working for me I should look into other options and I have left for periods of time because I did not want to feel the drain that I was feeling prior to taking a break. My leaves of absence have all been positive for me and it sounds like others have also benefited from taking a few steps back from the board so that they did not have to deal with anyone's stuff but their own.

What I am trying to say is that rarely does someone get banned or asked to leave BPDR for being a pain in the ass! The more common scenario where a person is reminded that they are here by choice is far more common and not made as a "threat" in my viewpoint. I have also seen where comments and criticism are taken into account and changes have been made so I don't think those sorts of complaints fall on deaf ears. There are just some things that will never be no matter how much we want them and it mostly has to do with not being able to please everyone all the time.

I agree with the concept that BPDR is "the way it is" and we, the posters, have to adapt to it, rather than vice versa. I was not asked to leave, but recently decided that I was getting frustrated when I started threads. My expectations were too high. I felt that I could not cope with my disappointment, so I kept my distance for awhile.

I have lowered my expectations so that the board won't affect so much. That is a positive learning experience for me. I am still hesitant to start threads, but I am seeing the board as "grey" now, instead of in black and white.

I enjoyed reading everyone's responses and their perspectives.

Candle,

I did notice what you had written. And I do think I am guilty of noticing the negatives, and not the positives. I had a discussion about that last night. I have taken up cooking, and after the meal, all I would do is point out the mistakes, and not the successes. I don't think I view it as a total failure. I think my problem is that I focus on the negatives as problems to fix, but I don't stop to give myself or anyone else credit for the good that is being done.

I know a little trick play for that if ya wanna hear it. CBTish, eventually changes the thought pattern if you practice enuff.

Our tech support girl says something similar about telling people how great they're doing until they eventually become great at what they're doing.

Teachers have found this to be true, as have parents (who are paying attention) I think. The more we focus on the positive, the more likely people are to think in terms of positivity. If we keep telling people how horrible or awful, that's what they'll become. Vice versa.

Think about a kid, little one, learning to walk or maybe a toddler who's just klutzy. Kid falls down and looks around. If Mom's face is horrified and filled with concern, the kid'll burst into tears. If Mom looks at him & says "Billy went BOOM!" and makes a joke of it, the kid'll burst into a fit of giggles. (Unless he's really seriously injured, you know what I mean.)

We pick up a LOT of social cues from people even when we don't realize it.

I think if we start noticing the positives in other people, we'll start being more positive people ourselves. We can't focus on postivity without letting it infect ourselves in the process! LOL

we were taught in parenting it takes 10 positives to overcome one negative remark to someone.

Thank you, Aqua. I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

I just had to say, thanks Ash for that last post! How true? Really. When you began to talk about the child learning to walk, it really reminded me of how I broke the "Mommy Dearest" cycle in my family. My mother was the last of her kind. Her actions and words were always very manipulative and she was very aware of this, too.

I have been estranged from my very unhealthy family for 15+ years and we only live 30 minutes apart.....lol I am happy to say that my son is 19 and I treated his falls with the "oops baby went BOOM"...instead of belittling him. (Putting myself in the child's shoes each time that I had to make a decision, as a mother, was also a very important to stopping the abusive cycle).

Therefore, at one point in this thread I had a need to say....Hi, my name is Steffanie and I am a woman. I may be mentally screwed up but I am NOT an abuser. I'm a mother. Things can always get better and we can always TRY harder as parents to stop some of the actions that cause people like us to suffer for the rest of their lives.....Recovery is possible!!

..Sorry for side tracking a little but your post really hit a chord with me. Thanks for letting me babble.

Hey! I like little CBT tricks.

OK, OK. I was gonna get me ol' man nap, but I'll mess about with this a bit first.

I offer this little gimmick because it's very well tested, (I used it with groups, individuals and myself for more than twenty years...) with a thirty plus year track record of success. I've used it with experiences here, and I've used it at critical times in my recovery work. Always helps at least a little.

Not saying there's anything wrong with having a negative response to stuff. Sometimes it's appropriate and fitting. But it seems we can get into a thought pattern where it seems to become an automatic reaction and causes us to reject thoughts and ideas that we later realize could have been valuable if we'd given the other side a good look.

This technique is called the Itemized Response. Originally part of a program meant to be a way to bring creativity to group problem solving and innovation to work teams, it was developed by an innovation think tank in Cambridge, MA. The program where we use this technique has been used by Fortune 10 corporations and non-profit preschools with equal success.

There's not a perfectly right way to do this, but it clearly will not have an effect on your thought patterns without considerable practice, even though each practice might take only ten or fifteen minutes, perhaps even less when you become familiar with it.

The sequence is important. And it would be useful to write it all out the first five or six times you practice it.

So, here is the Itemized Response.

When you hear a thought that prompts a negative reaction.. or any reaction that you want to handle differently, stop and frame your thinking about it in this way.

1. Describe the thought using a brief one sentence headline, and then put key points about the situation into a few sentences.

2. Review the headline/introduction and check to see if any critical data or information is missing. Add if necessary.

3. Begin by listing every imaginable positive attribute of the headline or thought you're considering. Write these down, put a "+" and a number in front of each statement. Statements can begin with "I like that..." or "It's helpful that..." or some positive statement like that. Spend at least five minutes doing this. At first it's best to spend more time because it takes a while for some thoughts to bubble up when we're used to putting all the negative stuff first. When you have listed every imaginable positive attribute... put your pencil down. And find 3-5 more. No matter how long it takes. Write them on the list.

4. Now you may begin to offer up the negative thoughts about the thought or idea or plan or statement... But you must do it in a particular way. Most importantly, you only are permitted three negative statements, so it's important to make sure your most powerful criticisms are included.

You must frame each statement constructively... in a way that invites work and more thinking rather than shutting it off. So there are only two ways to begin each statement of criticism...

" How best to ............ " or "I wish we could/I could...." then finish the sentence with the improvement or change needed to deal with your most powerful criticism. Or How best to (achieve the opposite state or an improved state for my biggest concern...) If it's too expensive, "I wish we could do this within budget".. If it smells bad.. "How best to make it smell like roses instead of dead fish"

Once this is done, if you're going to work toward a solution to the criticism or concern, you pick either one of the positive attributes or one of the criticisms, whichever holds some fascination or power for you or that you haven't considered before... and you make that statement the headline... and do another Itemized Response on that statement following the steps outlined above.

That's it. It seems complicated, but with frequent practice it not only pushes away the automatic negative response, but it also can give fresh ideas and insight about old approaches to old problems. Most groups I worked with got very fast and skillful with the process after about six tries. There can be big benefits from the "answers" you get to working any issue, but the much bigger benefit comes from working out.. exercising this kind of thought pattern. Get buff headed.

Actually, as I read this over, I see that this process is actually a matter of working a dialectic. One more example of how to get to the gray areas, in the vicinity of Wise Mind, by working at opposites in a newly structured way. Linehan was just a brat on a tricycle when this stuff was invented.

There ya go. Time for my nap. "How best to stay awake until I hit the bed"....

Thanks, IBF. After your nap, would you please give an example of this? I am not sure how you get positive statements about something that provokes a negative reaction.

But, erm, somehow I don't think this is what IBF was aiming for. Heh.

It's probably something more along the lines of:



... can have positive statements from it ...



Dunno if I'm close to what IBF was aiming for so I'll be as interested as you, Ann, to see what the post-ol'-man-nap produces!