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I was taught this too DB. Do you still believe this as an adult - That sickness or injury is not allowed?

Yeah, sounds a bit extreme to me too.

I had an ongoing illness for most of my childhood and I was taught that "I was bad and it was my fault that I was sick." Somehow I was causing my own sickness??? Never figured this one out. I was beaten up a lot as a result of this illness, so of course, I didn't want people to know about it. Like you, I also didn't want to know about it. Somehow, like you I was able to detach from my body and any physical discomfort that was there. I didn't know I was sick most of the time. It was only through the monthly tests that it was apparent that I was unwell. I hated swallowing pills (up to 4 times per day) because I didn't feel unwell, but if I didn't take them, then it was another excuse to beat me and blame me for being ill in the first place. If I didn't take them, I stayed ill (although I didn't feel unwell.) Totally confusing.

I still have flair-ups of this condition 3-4 times per year. These days I'm not so detached from my body, I actually feel really unwell when it does play up. I no longer see it as "something I was causing myself in order to be a bother to other people", it just is. I don't hide it from my Dr, and I don't refuse to take the medication to make me better. I care about myself and my body.

So do you still believe that being sick is a sign of weakness? Is sickness something you still "numb out" and pretend isn't happening? Do you hide illness from others and avoid getting treatment?


Yeah ditto. If they saw the injuries and knew how I got them, then they too would see what a bad person I was, and might reject me or injure me to - sound familiar? You know what? This is a complete load of crap. I got physical injuries from a woman who had no self-control and saw violence as the solution to punishing me and as a form of control. It had nothing to do with me being bad. If I made a mistake, it doesn't make me a bad person, and violence as punishment is completely unacceptable and nobody deserves that. You do know this right? You are not responsible for the way your father acted; he is.



Ok, there are extremes. Babying is one. Telling somebody to "get over it" and stop whining, is another. What would the grey area look like? Maybe some care and concern and taking an interest in the suffering of the person, and then perhaps offering them solutions as to how manage that, with the assumption that they will act adult-like and take action to fix the problem for themselves?

Some of us grow up believing we have to be completely independent, to never have needs, to hide sickness and injury. Others are raised in the opposite way - totally dependent, always needy, always whining about one sickness or another. Some of us were raised to be completely self-sufficient and take care of all of our own problems. Others were raised to never fix their own problems and always had somebody there picking up the pieces. (This is my H & I - I'm one extreme. He's the other.) Neither is healthy. I've had to learn to ask for help, to say what my needs are, to show vulnerability and to speak up when I'm sick or injured. I've had to learn that sometimes, it is ok to allow others to help me and to depend upon others. My H has had to learn to do the opposite - to not be so dependent, to not expect to be babyed, to grow up and take care of some of his own needs. The grey area here is: Interdependence. My experience has been that the pendulum has to swing from one side to the other (one has had to have experienced both extremes) before the grey area can be reached. With that said, perhaps when you see adults whining and wanting to be babyed, they are doing the pendulum swing thing?



I'm going to be completely honest here and say when I read this post, and then the above statement, it seemed contradictory. Note, I'm not saying that you are playing victim, but holding onto those extreme beliefs and crap that your father taught you - that isn't having a "victim mentality"?



It's great that you prefer to be an adult and want to take responsiibility for your actions and needs, really it is. But in the same token, one can still be an adult and ask for help, depend upon others to some degree, show vulnerability, be sick and receive nurturing, care and attention, without becoming a "victim" to anyone. One can still have control and be an adult, or perhaps I should say "act like an adult" whilst showing some vulnerability. There is a grey area between having total control and having no control.

Maybe your reactions to those you perceive as being manipulative people is in fact a counter-transference reaction. You wouldn't want to be like them, because of "your stuff", what you were taught as a child?

Amanda, there is so much here and I don't have the time to reply in depth right now so I will come back to this later when I have more time.

That's cool DB. I'm simply putting my thoughts out there for you to consider. It's your choice what you do with them or whether you decide to respond or not. I don't expect an immediate response, or any response really. Take care of you.

I can't write a better reply than what our Amanda just did.

[[Denim]] [[Amanda]]

I have some more time to get back to this now.


I don't typically allow myself to be sick. It took two days of having the flu this summer before I realized that my puking was actually the flu and that it was okay if I took some time off work and stayed in bed until I could stop puking (I could not even hold down water). At first I tried to ignore it and work through it but that wasn't working so well because other people noticed that I was sick. I have had some life-threatening illnesses in the past that I did not pay attention to either so I have to say this is probably a pattern for me.


I am not disputing what is true for you but I don't think the same is true for me. I really did have behavioral problems and I believe that if I had not been severely corrected I might have ended up being even more of a trouble-maker. I was not just in trouble at home but at school and other places as well. My father was not the only one who used corporal punishment on me either.


I take care of my daughters when they are sick and let them sleep or stay in bed watching movies but I don't give them any reason to prolong their return to health. I have compassion for people when they are not feeling well or not doing well but I won't accept that as a reason to continue doing poorly long-term.


I have heard the "pendulum swing thing" theory and I am not sure it is necessary to go from one extreme to another. I generally believe that people will revert to familiar behaviors under stress and so I assume that extreme behavior is just that and not a way of overcompensating for other extreme behavior.


I truly hope that I have not made statements that relate to having a "victim mentality" because I don't tend to see myself in a "victim" role. Can you tell me what words you read as my having a "victim mentality" in my post?


I am not sure what you are saying here. I would not want to act in the same ways as manipulative people but then I don't think many people would. I believe most people are taught to act in more appropriate ways.

I too had difficulties when I was "sick" as a child. Often, my mother didn't believe I was sick when in fact I was. On her behalf though, often I used sickness as a way to get out of school when in fact I wasn't physically sick (I was having emotional problems and was scared of going to school and had to use physical problems as an excuse out of going). When I got older and started working, still living at home, my mother was not tolerant of me staying home if I was sick. Many times I really WAS sick and she felt bad afterwards as she would push me to go to work.

Denim, I'm sorry you had difficult experiences as a child. However, being a child does not always necessarily mean you are powerless. I think that might just be your perception since it is what you experienced as a child. Not all children are punished when they hurt themselves or are told it is their fault - that they could have prevented it. That was just how your father saw things. I broke my arm when I was 10 years old - I slipped on the ice - yet I was never accused of it being my fault. I can see the difference between urging your children to be careful vs. accusing them of purposefully hurting themselves.

Because of my mental illnesses as an adolescent, I often used physical illness to get out of situations. Maybe I felt like a victim at the time, but I felt my back was up against the wall. I was not comfortable confiding in the adults in my life about what my life was like. So I skipped school - it was the only way I could cope. It was one of the most difficult times of my life and I wish things could have been different. I guess we all do what we have to do with what information (or lack of it) that we have. I can certainly see why you see things the way you do. Isn't it wonderful that we're older now and have a better perspective?

Then you say:
So, it's ok for your girls and others to be sick and to have compassion for them? If your girls had a life-threatening ilness, I'm assuming that you'd take them to be seen by a Dr? But you can't show yourself the same compassion? Why the double-standard?

This is one of the ways I see a "victim mentality" operating. One rule for others, but your father's rules apply to you.

I'm not going to dispute your view of yourself as trouble-maker or that you really did have some serious behavioural problems. If you say that you were/had these things, I believe you. If you say that violence was the solution to stop this; fine. Something for you to think about though: Which came first? "The chicken or the egg?" Were you really such a troubled, badly behaved child that abuse and punishment was needed to correct this? Or was it the abuse and punishment that led you to become a troubled child with behavioural problems? How bad can a 2 year old be? (I recall you re-counting incidences of abuse from as young as 2.)

Scenario: If your girls suddenly became trouble-makers, and starting having serious behavioural issues, would you beat them? Would it be acceptable to you, if other people (let's say a teacher) used corporal punishment on them? From what I've read from you in the past, you don't strike me as somebody who'd use corporal punishment with your kids.

I see this as another example of victim mentality - You deserved to be beaten, but your girls don't. Why is that? Your father doled out physical punishment like sweeties, and didn't care if others did the same.

I need to say it. I've known you for what? 4 or 5 years? And I have to say that in those years, I have seen little to no growth. I see you stuck in the same "victim mentality" - one rule for others, and your fathers rules for you. Yet, you seem to take issue and lose respect for others who appear to not be making progress. Looks like a classic case of counter-transference to me.

At this point, I'm stepping away from this discussion. My feelings of frustration, sadness & helplessness are too high. I'm getting a sense of understanding how the author of that book felt.

Okay, I am getting the message that you are frustrated with me about what I have said here and that you believe that I am being manipulative and therefore staying stuck in the very cycle I referenced in this thread. I will work towards better understanding what you have shared about my "victim mentality" being related to my having a "double standard" and how it relates to my making "little to no growth" in the years I have posted at BPDR.

After doing some searching to better understand this, I am pulling the following quotes from here:
http://board.bpdrecovery.com/bpdrecovery.com/board/posting.php?mode=quote&f=7&p=83145.







Now I am worried that if Amanda is right, I might also be in the victim loop (perhaps as a result of my trying too hard to understand where "the other side" is coming from?) and this disturbs me. I think I may be doing too much processing without progress and that is keeping me stuck on this topic. Seeking feedback does not appear to be helping me so I don't know what to do at this point. I seem to go in circles with this and I am finding it confusing.

With regard to the words of april15 that I quoted above, I suppose it is likely that I despise the victim mentality so much because it is where I am at when I don't want to be there and I work hard at not being there. By the mere act of avoidance of the victim loop, I may have put myself right in the middle of it! That may be why I am feeling so depressed lately and have lost my sense of "control" in my life. It feels as if there is so much pressure in my head that it is going to explode. I am trying to hold it together and yet I don't think I have the strength or the energy to keep from falling apart! That does sound like a victim mentality, eh? I am right back where I started years ago, working so hard just to live through each day when I really just want to drift off into eternal rest. My therapist mentioned that I might want to go back on meds and yet I don't want to admit defeat. Maybe I should take a break from mental health issues until my husband has moved out and my life is more manageable again.

FWIW Denim, I think it's huge progress to even consider the possibility that there may be some truth to what amanda said. I know it's not easy to see things about ourselves that we despise when we see it in others. For example, I am so afraid of being seen as a hypochondriac that I don't let others know when I need medical attention (even doctors) until it gets really serious. Recently a friend of mine got bitten by an insect and there was an itchy red bump on her arm. She called her doctor! And get this, the doctor told her to come in right away to get it checked out! I was like WHAT? It's a mosquito bite for gosh sakes! I was quite annoyed that the doctor thought it was serious enough to warrant a visit. I think I felt jealous that she was getting so much attention over a little bug bite while I could be bleeding and my doctor would probably tell me to take a few aspirin and don't call in the morning.

The thing is, there is a payoff for me for being stoic, and it is just as manipulative as those hypochondriacs. I get attention from people who know my tendency to hide my illnesses, and they are more likely to express concern about me, where they might have dismissed my complaints if I was a hypochondriac. That's what makes me see myself in the victim loop at times (not always). I recognize the words "deny", "ignore", "rationalize" in my behavior. It's not surprising if you grow up in an environment where big things were minimized. All of life is experienced on a different scale.

April and Denim: I'm not going to comment on the subject matter of the thread, as I don't have enough energy to try to understand it, but I just have to tell April about mosquito bites. I'm surprised you don't know about West Nile disease. A mosquito bite is not "just an insect bite" anymore. People have died from them, by just getting bitten in their backyard. I haven't heard as much about it this year as the past few years, but I am petrified of getting a mosquito bite! The older you are the more susceptible you are, and there isn't any cure. You can die from the bite! So, in the case of your friend, her call to the doctor and the doctor's reaction was justified.

The chances of getting West Nile virus are very slim, and I get bitten every summer, and I'm still alive. Of course one could die from just about anything. I still think calling a doctor for a bug bite is a bit melodramatic, unless there are other symptoms such as signs of an allergic reaction. What could a doctor do if WNV has no cure anyway? Would they test you on the spot for WNV? I'm pretty sure you'd be sent home like my friend with a bill for an office visit.

Denim, I don't believe you are right back where you started from. You have so much insight and you are always very clear when you "talk." Sometimes though, other people can see things about us that we can't see ourselves.

Instead of focusing so much about being in the "victim mode," perhaps you can think of why you feel the way you do and how to move past that. You have more or less identified the problem. Now you can work on solutions. I would begin by talking to your T about your childhood and how it relates to you today. Try to work through those issues.

Also, please remember that taking meds is not a defeat. So many of us take meds. My head is clearer now than it has ever been, and I'm sure much of it has to do with meds. It IS NOT a defeat! We have problems and we have to use all the tools at our disposal to help us. Meds are one of those tools. I'd hate to see you stagnate because you're not doing all you can to help yourself.

I see you on the brink of a great discovery. Learning things about yourself and how you can move on in your life. There is much to talk about. But if you're open and honest with your T, you should begin to get a clear picture of reality. Your father had his own way of dealing with you, but it was not in your best interest. Now you have to get past that somehow. Bring yourself into the present.

I think you can do this. You're quite intelligent and articulate. You have the tools to do this. I hope you go for it!!!!

P.S. - I want you to know that I know this is not easy. I don't want to come across as a little perky cheerleader. But I do want to see you do all you can to help yourself!!!!

[[Denim]]: I don't know about the victim loop and the manipulative thing, but I can't believe how very courageous you are to look at and consider these concepts as suggested by Amanda.

It is very difficult to imagine you in the victim loop, certainly in any kind of volitional way, and I don't see you as manipulative either.

There are complexities that can be caused by such severe childhood trauma that one can't really call the 'fall out' as volitional in the sense that you had to hard-wire in protective mechanisms to survive, and if those defenses have become ingrained to a certain level, it, again, is difficult to put a 'volitional' or 'intention' of victim loop on it.

This is very complex stuff, and I can't urge enough to seek out help with looking at this stuff, and meds might help level things out, so that the examination, (which road I know you've been down before so, again, there is no lack of trying going on with you), can be more effective and eluminating.

Denim - If you are holding together, OK, maybe you should not try to go further into this. I say this only bc of the facts as expressed by you that I know about your background = childhood.

Saying this is counter-intuitive, but in my 3D life and as difficult as my interaction with my brother can be, I DO see why he holds the world view that he has and why he has the defenses that he does, and since he is doing well, I struggle with whether to push certain things or not, bc I believe he needs those in place to be OK, (given what happened to him and the alternate route he took plus some extra stuff that I don't have to have lurking in my psyche), unless and until there would be something else to put in the place of those survival defenses.

I can't believe I'm writing this. It's so counter-recovery in the conventional sense, but no one should try to take away someone elses' 'structure', unless they can build another one in its place, [and I don't think anyone who has posted here has that intention].

I mean, there is a reason people split off parts of their personality and there is a difference of professional opinion whether total re-integration is always the way to go.

Gosh I feel conflicted about writing this, but we all want our [[Denim]] to be OK and to continue to be among us, ya know?

I do better when I am not in therapy. After my last appointment, my therapist called and left a message on my phone about how much I have going on right now and how I might want to call her or schedule appointments more frequently than once a month. The thing is, there is nothing she can do about how much I have going on right now nor can she do anything about my thoughts and feelings about what is going on so it does not make sense to see her more frequently than once a month. All I managed to do was to cause her to be concerned because I admitted that I am depressed so now she is suggesting I go back on meds, knowing that I don't want to be on meds. The money I would spend on additional therapy and meds could be better spent on something with more tangible rewards. Therapy is really not doing me any good and in fact only keeps reminding me how "mental" I am.

I think that once my husband moves out, I will be able to take care of things that I have not been motivated to do because I have given up on our marriage and the idea of having a peaceful household as long as he is here. I imagine it will be so nice to have him out of the house that I won't be feeling so stressed out and depressed. I don't want to be responsible for his happiness anymore and he seems to think that is what I agreed to when I married him. I just want to take care of my daughters and myself without having him bring us all down with his unhappiness. Living with a depressed person who expects me to make him happy is bringing me down so that I can't keep myself afloat very well right now. The stress will be coming up with enough money to pay our mortgage without him so we don't lose our home but I am looking for work in order to meet my financial obligations.