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No. A high percentage of abusers being Borderline does NOT mean a high percentage of those with BPD are abusers. There's nothing stating which people with BPD are abusers, and it might not be random. So, no, even if we take both statements as fact, that doesn't lead to the conclusion that most abusers are female. It does suggest we shouldn't assume females aren't abusers.

As much as everyone is absolutely entitled to define abuse in whatever way they like (just as I'm "entitled" to swear black and blue that the sky is yellow), in you Jody I have seen what I would consider a misinterpretation of many actions as "abusive". I see you calling lots of things abusive that often I don't agree with, many others don't agree with, or that eventually neither do you, once you've really nutted out the situation. This is the thing for you Jody: "everyone's abusing me". Whilst you admit here that you can't tell the difference between care and abuse, you also refuse to budge when someone comes along and says "Well, actually, invalidation isn't always a form of abuse" - for you it's "we'll have to agree to disagree". When Jody, you admit you don't know the difference. So how can you justify being so adamant?

The thing is, when you call something abuse, it's followed by "therefore absolutely unacceptable", "must be stopped/avoided" or "must be ignored" or "must be named". Naming people as abusive can in itself be a form of abuse (you've done it to me and it felt a bit like a punch in the face, not to mention a severe form of invalidation). And once you've reached the decision that XYZ is abusive, you stop looking at yourself (questioning yourself/WORKING on yourself) and rest upon the conclusion that it's them. Once you've decided you're a victim of abuse, you have instantly put yourself in the position of victim.

One of the defining features of abuse is that the abused has no choice, no alternative. You are an adult and you have choice. When you choose otherwise, when you choose to suffer the abuse, that's self-abuse (aka: enablement).

Where I think the whole "is invalidation abuse?" question applies here is that sometimes invalidation is just that: invalidation. If a child is always invalidated, their feelings invalidated, their importance in the world invalidated, their rights as a human being invalidated, that is a form of abuse bc the child is not capable of defying that belief. What's abusive to a child isn't always so for an adult. If I say to someone "American Beauty is a great film" and their response is "Well I'm a film director and script writer and what you just said is rubbish. It's a crap film." well, that invalidates my opinion bc I am not a film director/writer. But it's not abusive. It's just invalidating.

It's important to recognise the whole separation of stuff thing: let others' stuff be theirs. But with the abuse question, well, how can you let someone's invalidation (for example) be theirs if you can't even tell the difference between abuse and care, let alone the far more subtle differences between abuse and invalidation, and you, historically, tend to lean to the side of seeing it as abuse?

So in essence, what I'm getting at is along the lines of what IBF is saying: if the work on yourself stops once you've defined an experience as abusive, then how does that help your recovery?

This is so interesting. I think much of my borderline behavior is due to invalidation as a child. Okay, so my mother slapped me in the face when I was a kid. I never thought of it as abuse. I DO think of it as invalidation. What difference, for me, does it matter what I call it? I still have to deal with how I reacted and how I behave now as an adult. Of course I don't equate my mother's slapping me in the same category as on-going physical, emotional or sexual abuse. So where is the line drawn?

The bottom line is how we behave NOW as adults. As adults we have the ability to see things we couldn't as a child. Again, where is the line drawn? I certainly don't put myself in the same category as those who endured horrible abuse. But I still have to do the work to un-do the years of invalidation (or whatever you want to call it).

One issue of mine is that I have a difficult time calling whatever happened to me "abuse." I more or less protect my mother. But she is gone now. What good would it have done to confront her? In my situation, I see a woman who was overhwelmed with caring for twin daughters, who had poor coping skills and did what she saw her mother do to her. She didn't slap me and my sister all the time. Just once in a while. But sometimes it was done in public and it was shaming and invalidating. So my job now is to overcome that and learn how to deal with invalidation when it happens to me now. Do the skills that I need to in order to deal with life now.

I am not comparing myself with anyone else - I'm just sharing my story. We all come from different places. Again, to me, the bottom line is how we relate to the world now. Today. I give credit to anyone who is working towards learning new skills and how to overcome difficult or even abusive childhoods. Maybe it's all semantics. I call it one thing, you call it another. But we still have to do the work.

Jody, you are still missing the key point I was trying to make. That what is and isn't abuse, whether invalidation is or isn't abuse, varies with the situation. I have not made any generalizations about all situations. And, within trying to make that point, I talked about the kind of situation I'm familar with. And I'm saying it's not the same situation as you with your spouse, or you mother, and the two can't be compared.

I'm good, my relationship has been much better as of late. A lot of hard work.



Actually, the trust I was talking about is the trust in yourself. Kinda hard to explain, but its kinda you trust more in your (generic you, not you you) own judgements and actions, and that allows you to trust someone is giving you good advice or boad advice. Then accept or reject and be content that it was the best judgement you can make, and if it fails it fails, if it succeeds it succeeds. Also allows you to identify abuse and trust that its not going to control you. Sort of like laughing at a horror film you've seen a dozen times because it doesn't scare you any more. I don't know, I'm not good with analagies.

As far as expecting abuse from everyone, I can really see where that would come from. In my own experience with family (both mine and inlaws), abuse of many different forms can be the "normal" operating procedure. When you are conditioned to expect it, when you don't get any I can see where a person can be looking for it around any corner.


yep!



I agree with this, and to take it a step further. In asking why it is such an annoyance, I think there is an element of being controlled by the abuse in the past, and saying "its not going to happen again!".



I think looking at this from a bit farther away, I would suggest that what someone who abuses someone else fears is a lack of control. Of themselves. Therefore, getting people to do what they want keeps them feeling in control. And, unless they are psycopathic, they "never" set out to abuse anyone. In their mind at least. They choose abusive behavior, but not to abuse for abuse sake, its to help them feel in control. I'm not excusing it or diminishing it in any way, but I feel understanding it helps me avoid it. And I could be wrong.



I agree with this and have to add that I think recognizing the consequences, and accepting them as such, is a huge effort. Then seeing that there are different choices is another huge effort. IMO thats what releases a person from the cage.

Let me relate a story about my MIL. Who can be abusive, subtile abuse, and causes my W no end of aggravation and invalidation. She comes off very nice, and when our children are visiting, they are always kept busy with games, things around the house, all that. She lives in a mountianious area, great for exploring. If they want to explore something, she's always there with them. Sounds nice eh? Its not. When I step back and take a large view of the situation, I realize she's always there to control what is going on. To control what they eat, where they go, what they do. Why? she is scared of heights and many other things and has to be there so nothing happens. If something happens when she's not around, Bang "I have to do everything". She sounds very active, but in reality, she's very controling.

one short point. when i was speaking of invalidation to BG, i had searched it on yahoo and was speaking about it ONLY as a child would see it, because that is what she was talking about and referring to. and what i was referring to in answer to her post.

i did not mean invalidation to a adult. i was answering her point of her as a child. its all gotten mixed up in responses and other views.

the other, while i appreciate everyone sharing, is this is something i must work thru in my own stuff to come to the middle about abuse. the views shared help, but its my healing stuff i have to do to understand. its not uncommon , i think, for one to swing both ways before settling in the middle. (someone here has said that before altho i dont recall who at the moment --it was awhile back). i just happen to be doing it in public so i can work on myself better.

as hard as im working, i feel i will get to that middle ground.

interesting, ellen, my DIL is that way and i never saw it as such till you mentioned it. she wont allow me to have the grandkids unless she is there. we went to ft worth once (2 vehicles) and she let them ride with me in the truck. we had walkies with us and for 3 hours i heard are they buckled in? yes, for the 100th time. make sure they sit down..they were. dont let them have any snacks,..i wasnt. on and on. till i turned off the walkie and we had to stop and she made me turn it on again or the girls had to come with her. lol. (it was worth a shot). interesting stuff.

well sarah, i think i explained why i do this. since i didnt know what abuse was, maybe now i see it behind every bush. i think this will change as i grow with this idea.

""""if the work on yourself stops once you've defined an experience as abusive, then how does that help your recovery?"""" i dont think i ever said it stops??? not sure where you got that one, sarah. if anything, my work on me has intensified. counseling, group, here, in real.

great discussion going here.

I'm confused. Either you've got me mixed up with someone else, or else I'm not following what you are saying. I'm not seeing how this connects with anything I said.

sorry! it was spoonman!

my bad.............answering spoonman....

it is very frustrating for me to not see things others can see. it must be equally frustrating for them to see something i cant yet.

spoon, i daresay this takes incredible patience on your part, and on anyones who sees this stuff i (and maybe your SO) cant see yet. please dont give up on us.

sorry, ellen!

I also think there's a fine line between abuse and being controlling. My grandmother had a lot of fears and threw them onto my sister and me. She wouldn't let us cross the street by ourselves, she insisted on holding our hands. She watched our every move when she was with us. She was scared of so much. But I don't see this as abusive. I'd say it was just a pain-in-the-neck. I think we all see things like abuse, invalidation and controlling through different glasses. It all depends on our experiences. So for some of us, it's like comparing apples to oranges to cherries.

In the long run, I dont' believe it matters what we call how we were raised. It's what we do with it now. As I said, my grandmothers' behavior was annoying to me at most - maybe another would call it abusive. As long as we're trying to change now because of stuff done to us back then, I think that's the most important thing. All of these people in my life are gone now. I can't change what happened. But I can work on changing my reactions to past incidents.

Again, I am not trying to say abuse didnt' happen to anyone here. I respect anyone who had those horrible experiences and also respect them for trying to get over them. I'm just saying that we each have our own definititions, imo.

And my mother, when we lived on Jefferson Ave (two lanes in each direction with speed limits of 45 mph) used to tell me to "go play in traffic." *snort*

Ash! Your mother must have known my mother - she told us the same thing! Funny, I grew up in New York and I always played in traffic. But I knew how to dart in-between the cars. (lol)

im thinking maybe i need to define my definitions of some of these words. so here goes.

invalidation==to me means always being told i cant do something. or told im stupid. "here, let me do that, you know you wont do it right". "damn, how stupid you are! you spilled that again!". """in�val�id 2 �� (n-vld) KEY �

ADJECTIVE:

Not legally or factually valid; null: an invalid license.
Falsely based or reasoned; faulty: an invalid argument.

basically teaching one by words that they are faulty. basic word==invalid

Child abuse is the physical, psychological or sexual maltreatment of children. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse


abuse:
1: a corrupt practice or custom
2: improper or excessive use or treatment : misuse <drug abuse> <abuse of tranquilizers>
3obsolete : a deceitful act : deception
4: language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily
5. physical maltreatment
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abuse

abuse as i would define it==deliberate mistreatment of another in a hurtful way .

so. i dont see why we all cant have our own mindsets on this.

BG, i wouldnt call that abuse at all. i tend to that with my grandkids also. once you bury a kid or 2, you become aware of how quickly life can be taken away. maybe overprotective.

i always played in the street, or in the fields with a .22 we took along...

I understand Jody. I think that we all will have our own definitions, depending on our life circumstances. I can also see how certain types of invalidations can become blurry with abuse. Definitely repeated sexual and physical harm to a child is abuse. Words are a different story - they can be blurry. What I may call invalidation you may call abuse. I've had friends whose H's verbally abused them. I'm not sure where the line is drawn. Maybe when someone is repeatedly told they're a bad person or they're stupid or something along those lines, it's verbal abuse. When you're told that what you're thinking or feeling is not true, that's invalidation. I think I just answered my own question.

Okay, abuse is repeated deliberate harm - either physical, sexual or words. Invalidation is when someone tells you that what you're saying or feeling isn't right, or isn't true. I know this is very general, but does this make sense?

how i see it.....

invalidation is not necessarily separate from abuse. abuse can be tons of things, done said looks writings, etc.

invalidation is only one part of that.

(i love how we are defining our ideas of abuse, instead of arguing it in general terms--this was greatly needed)

so in my belief, one cant argue they are always a separate thing.

esp in children, invalidation is extremely damaging. in adults, not so much so depending on the circumstances and person involved.

i tend to believe abuse is deliberate. now does the person doing it know this? not always. it is a subconcious thing. but for whatever reason, and i have learned thru classes and Ts the reasons abusers abuse, it is a method to gain control and pass on their feelings they cant face.

sometimes someone can just be stupid and say something wrong that maybe came out wrong, and then its isnt abuse but just disrespect or rudeness. all rudeness isnt abuse. all rudeness isnt on purpose. (some of us just stick our feet in our mouths) but all abuse is rudeness. in my belief*. if someone needs to invalidate another constantly, then its abuse. invalidate is more a attempted feeling, or action, than a direct one, in a adult. adults can choose how to take it, whereas kids dont know that or arent yet capable of it.

in no form do i think abuse needs 2. it doesnt, one can be abusive and the other has left or ignoring it. again, the tree falling in the forest stuff. the behavior is WRONG, regardless. do you remember we had a guy here from india? i think? speaking about his brother? even if they left, and he tore up the house, he was abusive. they didnt have to be there. destroying things is abuse. someone will feel that eventually, when they have to clean it up or replace it. it is a temper tantrum from a 3 yr old in a adults body. why is the 3 yr old not abusive? because he/she isnt old enough yet. a adult chose to destroy. a kid doesnt know choices yet at 3 or 2. that is why they are taught we dont hit, we dont bite, we dont break or throw. until their old enough to choose, and to expect it will hurt someone. a 10 yr old, is abusing if they do it. they have the maturity to know someone might be hurt.

just my beliefs right now as i learn about abuse and what it did to me as a person. im sure some of it may change as i grow in this.

now here is a question i have.

why are abusers not abusive to every person they meet? they pick out who to be the shithead to, and who to be so nice to, and this is another in the line that reinforces brainwashing to the person abused. we think "are we not worth being nice to? does that mean we are no good? why is he/she nice to john doe and mean to me?" we will come to the conclusion we are worthless. which is what the abuser wants. have us feel more worthless than they do about themselves. they can damn sure try to control US, if they cant control their own feelings about themselves. send that pain on. they sure wont face it.

this is one of the most destructive parts of abuse. nice one day, abusive the next. speaking nicely to someone, turning back to us and speaking like we are a dog. and refusing to see it.

it is hugely damaging and more powerful than some realize. one can not suddenly begin to disregard abuse and choose to not let it bug one. the brainwashing is in place. the damage is there to overcome. the incredible anger.

abusers are never abusive to every person they see. they can indeed be the nicest, kindest, (haha) person most would ever know. sometimes leaders in the business place. in the church. but to certain ones, they are the devil on earth. this also is why so much abuse is not believed by another. "what are you doing to "make" him do that? your crazy, he is such a nice person."

all part of the insanity called DV. domestic abuse.

all part of why we as abuse survivors/victims have this need to do it ourselves. learn, see, feel for ourselves. im sure we go about wrong sometimes, believe wrong things at times, act wrong at times. but we have this core need to learn it ourselves. to see if we are worthless or not! to fight against someone telling us things in ways like orders or commands. and we will hear commands in many things.

what brought this up? seeing my H talk to someone in wal mart yesterday. hi! how are you? smiling....then coming home to his tirade at me about bleeding heart liberal blah blah. it really struck me the diff in his behavior and demeanor. what hurt was why he cant be nice to me like that? but they wont. its quite strange to see. what hurt is he CAN be a human being. but not to me.

just a bit more thoughts....exploring my own thoughts. facing them.

The ones I knew:

They abuse who they can. They abuse who they are allowed to abuse. They go as far as they can with everyone they meet. The ones who aren't good victims, they move on to the next, until they find one who will put up with it. Some people are just crying out, "Willing Victim Here!" with their actions and thoughts, and they bee-line straight for them. Something in them wants and needs the misery, and to be in the victim chair. And they are there to give them what they want.... that's what they think. They see no reason to not give them what they want, when they want to also.

I cannot talk about abuse, but I can talk about invalidation. I believe I was invalidated as a child, and most definitely as an adult. The people who did it to me did not (in my opinion) think they were doing anything wrong. To them, they were just fooling around and having a joke. But the jokes were at my expense. Okay, maybe I can't "take a joke." But it hurt. And the more angry I got at their behavior, the more they laughed. I dont' think this was abuse - they would never believe they were being mean. Maybe they thought I was over-sensitive. Again, where do you draw the line? But I hated it. Actually, for me, it was worse when I was an adult, not as a child. All invalidation. I see a need for some respect here. For instance, why do they think it's wrong that I dont' like to hear TV commercials? So they make fun of me because I lower the sound on the TV during them. Have a little respect for me, okay? Give me a break. Who am I hurting my lowering the sound on the TV? It's stuff like that. Just basic respect is all I ask for.

great point, BG. just respect. sometimes it seems that is hardest for some people to get or give.

if you dont like hearing commercials, then more power to ya. i love a lot of them...they can be hilarious. (half i sing along with!) but me liking em has nothing to do with you and your not listening to them.

i hate that, "you just cant take a joke". sure i can, but those types jokes arent funny and actually are a type of abuse. (re: my classes and counseling)

just cause they dont see it , doesnt mean it isnt. they are laughing,gaining something, at anothers behavior. not right.

""""they would never believe they were being mean. Maybe they thought I was over-sensitive""". most abusers wont believe it. (not saying they are, who knows, they certainly have a cruel streak somewhere tho and at the least, lack of respect for another) over sensitive is for you to decide. if you dont like it, then you dont. nothing excuses cruelty or misplaced humor. if you were to say, "i feel hurt when you laugh at x i do", and they blame you for being hurt, they show a huge lack of understanding or caring as a human. if they didnt mean it hurtful, you were still hurt. that wont always absolve them. it just shifts the blame to you. you can choose to not give a shit, of course. it still wouldnt give them license to be disrespectful.

abuse is embodied by the total lack of respect for a person. thanks for sharing!

Abuse is a 50/50 situation, in a lot of cases. In today's world, there are options and ways to get out of the situation. If one made a mistake by getting in it, which is probably imminent for some people coming out of bad environments, then it's their responsibility to leave the situation. If they are still there, then that means they are allowing it to occur, and they need to take responsibility for their half of the bargain. At the same time, the abuser needs to take responsibility for their 50%, that they also need to change their actions and thoughts.

If someone is acting like a victim and they get victimized, then they need to take responsibility for changing their actions so that they aren't a flashing red sign calling in abusers. One doesn't act like a victim and then get angry because they are being victimized, and point the finger at the abuser. That's putting all the responsibility on the abuser. One must change their actions and thoughts in order to make themselves safe against them. Abusers are in the world, and that's something to accept. The question is: what can I do to make myself safe so the abusers won't abuse me? When one figures that out, they stop coming.

I find that a lot of times, the "victims" are abusing themselves, in one way or another, but pointing the finger fully on the abuser for the responsibility to change. It's 50/50. When one achieves a certain level of health and responsibility for themselves and keeping themselves safe, and knows how to do so, they will no longer be victims.

I think the way one defines "abuse" is SO important. If abuse get defined too broadly - people claim "abuse" when really they have been offended, disagreed with, feel bad, etc. True abuse, imo, involves a power differential and where the person on the receiving end has few to no choices.

Physical and sexual abuse seems relatively easier to define. Where things get tricky, to my mind, is in defining emotional or pyschological abuse/emotional abuse.



The bolded part is the part that really is important to me. Kids dealing with adults in power have a power differential. They have little/no power and choice to truly change the sitaution.

However, in adult-adult interactions - we have power. We have choices.

Molly

Why jody? This is my very honest opinion based on a road I have travelled.

Because of us Jody

What they project to the world is who they would and perhaps often are n even would like to be. I have worn a mask often lol. The self reassured confident me. Althought I am not abusive ( I hope) abuse I have come to learn comes from ones own insecurities. What they protray n show to the rest of the world is where they would like to be.

Fake it till you make it?

Seriously tho! Kick my shoes off/ take my coat off n put down my hat for the day. Everything that pee'd me off is likely to come out. Why? Cos I feel comfortable.

If I am not introspective I would not blame me for those reactions. I would blame those I felt might love me, keep me, make me feel safe. N perhaps should / might understand me more than the rest?

Why cos of us? We are accepting for the most part of it....not by our words but by our behaviour.


Dunno just a few thoughts?

i totally agree we have choices, molly. i have spent the last 4 or 5 yrs learning those! and using them, and they do help a lot.

i find the abuser interesting as hell. i should have went to school and studied it! it is never dull. even to the fact spanning years, decades, time, age, location, they say almost the same words. amazing stuff.

but as some might wonder, what has this to do with me or my recovery? i think the more i do this, the more i let go im the cause of it and can change them. something very deep in me. slowly i have let this go.

learning what is abuse and what needs to be labeled rude, disrespectful behavior is part of my work.

tracy, interesting. i think its because also the "others" are for ..word?....minor surface stuff. and they are so good at it most think WE on the receiving end are the nutcases. (i was such the bad guy when i left my H, it was funny as hell at times) fascinating stuff. they gotta keep the facade up and still handle those needs.

who better than the one who loves them, they who dont feel they are worth love? ah,,key. strangers, others, dont "love" them. thus they are no threat. only the closest ones care, and caring is the threat!

finding i had power was a awesome thing. learning what to do with it has been harder.

Of course imo!

Other wise they would be wrong? no? Introspection is very hard for someone that acts out/ abuses? jmo

But how diff is it from us inward acting people that take the blame for everything we havent done eh?

Same scenario two diff reactions! N perhaps even two diff roles to play. Both seem pretty defensive to me......!

Such an interesting topic (have I said that already)? Anyway, I believe in my case, there is no abuse. There IS however, a lack of respect. How to I respond? Okay, so my family is visiting and we're watching TV. I don't like the commercials. My choices: stay and listen to them (suck it up). Or leave every time a commercial comes on (not very practical). Or not watch TV with them at all. None of the choices are wonderful. If I don't watch TV with them they might accuse me of being anti-social. If I stay and watch TV the commercials might cause me great anxiety. You see the dilemma. Nothing works out very well. I AM an adult with options though. That's the bottom line. As adults, we have options. Whether we use them or not are our choices. But if we don't use them, we have no cause to complain, do we?

Children is another matter. Children often don't have choices. But adults do. How many people have I met who stay at jobs they absolutely HATE because of one thing or another? But they still have choices, no matter what they think. The choices may not be ideal, but they're there.

For me, I might want to try to talk to my family and get them to see my POV. I have tried this repeatedly with my H. Sometimes he gets it, sometimes he doesn't. It all depends on the circumstances. But if I want it to work, I have to keep trying. To show him where the disrespect is.

Just my thoughts on this matter. Thanks guys!

the diff is, we dont hurt anyone else in our stuff.

they do.

same reasoning, control, etc. both can come from childhood abuse.

what is hard to do much with is most of the world wont face their own demons. or say, feel* they were abused and as such begin to choose to not allow it. so who do they get angry at? us who face it, speak it, and move from it. easier than to face themselves.

actually tracy, you said this.."""But how diff is it from us inward acting people that take the blame for everything we havent done eh?""" here is one of my issues. i dont know if i have done something or not! i have to really take time to work out "is it me?" "is it them?". i dont know this well yet. at least the only person i hurt is me,. hopefully, most of the time.

i still cant tell if something is someone elses issue, or mine. cause most will lay it off on us if allowed. complicated. it never sounds it, but try counseling about it and you will quickly see it isnt black and white at all.

i was hoping you would share in this thread:) esp anything you have learned! (always looking for some shortcuts for me)

yes, very defensive roles. both for self protection. wow, hadnt seen that before! cool, ty!

hey BG, you posted as i hit submit! lol. """"The choices may not be ideal, but they're there.""" there is always a choice. however, and this we discussed in my group last thursday, there can be no right choices sometimes. kids, custody, safety, life, in some circumstances. in yours, try to explain. suck it up, leave the room. none good. that is the kicker! i can see staying at a shitty job. i can see your dilemma. thanks for sharing!

one thing i hate is us who can be abused, we have to give up everything at times to leave it. God, i hate that. but its how society works. it could take 10 or more years to overcome the consequences of leaving. that takes self esteem, sadly i dont have yet. the very ones who need it, usually may not have it.