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I think in my post, I might've not focused on the fact that you would've written the sentence differently now, but that you might've asked a different question, or changed something about what you did say in your original posting. Anyway you look at it, the message still applies.

I think the details are less important that the application of the message to any situation.

I didn't really understand what you were after from this thread when I posted my post. So I'm sorry if I didn't give you what you were after. Understanding that you not only experience this social avoidance, but also why I imagine will be helpful for you. All the best with it.

Sarah, Did you even read my reply to you? Most of what you said was really helpful for me, so I'm not sure what you mean by

Thanks. I had planned to not bother coming back to this thread because I was getting sick of sorting through all the mis-communications, mis-interpretation, etc. The actual focus of the post seemed to get completely lost amongst the muck. And the interesting/helpful posts somehow left on the back-burner. When I stepped back from this thread for a bit, I became more aware that it had actually been my choice to engage in the more conflict-focused posts, than in those that were actually helpful to me.

It seems you're understanding better what the intent of this post was. Having found my comfort zone and stability in the work/home arena of my life, and having been there for a considerable amount of time, I was somewhat caught of guard when I decided to expand my life, and found more issues, in particular with the social arena.

I guess my view of new issues tends to be more on the negative side "Oh no, not more crap to work through" rather than seeing it - "This new challenge is an opportunity to expand and grow." I kind of lose sight of the final outcome (And perhaps even that it may turn out to be a successful one) and get caught up in the difficulties of the challenge, in the moment.



I would really appreciate you taking the time to find the list of 8 basic things that one needs to do to enjoy themselves.

I appreciate you sharing your experience with the tennis ad and how it led to a new relationship.

Amanda I am so sorry! You know I completely missed the post you made! I'm such a dits (sp?) sometimes. Um..

FWIW I wasn't upset, although I may have sounded like it.

(uncomfortable pause)

Taking your H along sounds like a great way to help you to break the ice with new people. It sounds to me like once you know people you're fine with interacting, but meeting strangers is the problem. Is that right?

I also found myself doing this a lot. People can create obstacles for you with misinterpretations and with their own thoughts. I found that I didn't have to explain myself, if I didn't want to. It's not my responsibility to "fix" every wrong assumption or misinterpretation. I can focus on what I want to focus on, and I can still acknowledge their post while doing so, by just focusing on the positive, and on how to solve my own problems. If the information doesn't help, I don't have to counter it or use it.

I think I realized this when I got really annoyed one day because I felt like everytime I posted, I was guaranteed a bunch of obstacles, disagreements, misunderstandings, and/or negativity, when I really just wanted to work through an issue and gain an understanding in a positive direction. Sometimes obstacles and misunderstandings help to gain understanding, depending, and also help me to grow in other directions (such as writing and reading comprehension), but I think they can be presented in a way that isn't so abrasive and possibly nit-picky (and that includes for me). I've tried to be forgiving of others lately when it comes to their own writing and thoughts (and if I need to know something that isn't clear, try to ask and not point-the-finger at them for not making that clearer), because I can't expect others to be good writers or good at reading comprehension, or on-the-mark when it comes to their thoughts, and I'm not a great writer myself. And I can't expect them to add what I think is important. I try to gloss over what isn't that important for me to consider or point out, and hit the main issue and how to solve it, and add what I can to help do so.

So, in my own threads, I focus on what's important for me and in solving my issue, and leave the rest. But I also try to acknowledge their contribution and what it meant for me, because even in a post that I view as mostly negative or disagreeable, I can gain something from that, even if it's only to know that perspective exists. I am also driving my own threads, as in, I can choose the information I want to address, and what direction it goes in from there. A thread can be an obstacle course, and I'm the driver.

Here is that piece you asked me about, Amanda.

Eight Principles of Fun

The Eight Irresistible Principles of Fun are:

Stop hiding who you really are.
Start being intensely selfish.
Stop following the rules.
Start scaring yourself.
Stop taking it all so damn seriously.
Start getting rid of the crap.
Stop being busy.
Start something.


I find these all to be right on the mark. Those people I know that are having fun and are fun to be around are more carefree and less afraid of saying/doing the right thing or being the right person. They will laugh at their mistakes; even tell on themselves; they will laugh at and with others; and they definitely don't take life so seriously- they are more loose in this sense.

At work we remind each other of this often we have a little saying and when you hear those words you are reminded that its not the end of the world.

Wondering how many of these others also find to get in their way. I can raise my hand on all- some higher than others.

No worries Sarah. Just wanted to clarify what you meant.


I'm the person you see standing/sitting alone in a corner, unable to initiate a conversation with anyone. I'm the one you'll see standing out back having a smoke (alone) to calm myself down. And, if somebody approaches me or my H introduces me to somebody, I will do a lot of "listening" but not much contributing. I observe people, their communication style, to see if I feel comfortable around them, but even when I do, it can take me a heck of a long time (often never) to approach the person.

I did however do this recently with a lady I met at my T's office. Expressed an interest to my T, who then spoke to her T. Phone numbers were exchanged because she too said she was interested in getting to know me, but It took 6 months before I got brave enough to actually contact her. She probably would have never contacted me first. ANyway it turned out we were a good fit for one and other and we've met up a few times now. Anyway, we're going to continue to grow the relationship, except it isn't really going to be going in a direction that I'd like it to go (at this stage.) My friend has become very ill physically, and is housebound, on morphine, so the opportunity to do fun activities together isn't there. But, I am happy to go visit, have lunch together, chat together, and get to know each other better.

SMilin - Thankyou for sharing the list. It's a very interesting one and I have a lot of thoughts on it, rather much along the lines of what Jody wrote about in the "offshoot thread" she started. Intellectually I might think, these things sound reasonable to attempt, but "emotionally" It feels uncomfortable to go against the grain of everything that one has been taught (the exact opposite of that list!)

This resonates with me quite well. Now, put myself in a company, meaning job, with many (or more exacting mostly, such as 90/10 or 95/5) strong personalities and omg, what have I done ? LOL.. It has been quite a challenge. Some people find me/my style offensive. I guess I'm thought of as either aloof or a recluse (or both). Others will reach out or be friendly but, it is still a task to deal with. Alot of politics in my office dont make this easy; fortunately with our satellite office I fair a bit better, but I only see them a handful of times within the course of a year.

However, this isn't just a work thing. It is me. It is how I function. I listen and if I feel I can relate Im the one asking question and showing interest in the other person. I dont offer a lot about myself or my experiences until I really feel comfortable with others. And, yep, it is not a role conducieve to making friends easily. I am slowly learning tho, that by offering things about myself, it helps others feel more at ease around me and find a way to relate to me. It also lets them know that I enjoy their company. It is just very foreign and occurs only on my best of days. I have to be not too hung up on myself and my failings.



Yep! Exactly. I watched a good part of the slideshow again just a couple of days before your post and stopped because I knew that while it made sense the 'doing' was where I'd see the results and yet the 'doing' is what stops me nearly dead in my tracks. (I had bookmarked the site months ago and hadn't returned to it until this week.)

It also fits in line with another place I visit regularly which has exercises to do each day. The one I am about to describe I am still on and I was introduced to it about 3 weeks ago. I stopped there because I wanted to do the exercise vs gloss over it or pretend I could (its a huge challenge to me). And now with life so busy Ive not returned to the site, but, I know I will and I know I will work on it. I also know that others will find this exercise a piece of cake while for me it is anything but.

The exercise was related to how our name (and therefore also labels) identify us. And that we become those or live up to them- mother; sister; sibling; worker; artist; athelete whatever it is you can and do identify with. Well this exercise asks that I come up with a new name for myself, and then go about and create (and describe) this person and then enact who this person is.

Umm.... I don't even have a clear picture of the role this new person should take on. I have a few ideas of what might be fun, but how I would implement or how I would describe.. wow ! am I at a standstill. I have however brought this to mind every now and again; but I've yet to really work on it.

These two exercises seem to go hand in hand imo. Tho they have different angles and functions the idea is the same- break out of my mold.

Ps.. I agree about this being everything (or a whole heck of a lot) that I was told (directly and indirectly) was not 'ok'. I was raised on acceptance/acceptable behavior = love. To misstep wasn't always the end of the world, but we were always very well aware that it wasn't welcomed and we didnt fit the criteria for being 'good'.

(I dunno if you want to keep going here; start a new thread; or join in on Jody's but I felt that things originated here and I also dont know which direction you want to focus on... the 'doing' would be a welcome avenue for me)

Smilin - I'm heading off to work shortly so will address your latest post when I have some free time.

I did however want to post about one other thing that I've been thinking about. AT the end of my last T session, I said "I sometimes feel like you and other people see me in a completely different way from how I see myself." It's like we're talking about 2 different people at times. We tagged this as a "to be discussed next time I go to therapy" topic, but I've actually been thinking about it in the meantime, and just want to put it down in writing.

Do others have an off-base perception of me, because they don't really see or know me? This is what I believed but it suddenly dawned on me that perhaps they do see the real me, and their perception of me might be accurate, but mine is off-base because I'm still feeling uncomfortable "just being myself", because it goes against the grain of what I was taught about myself. In otherwords, the things that my family saw as "not ok" in me, others (healthier people) see them as ok? I still feel awkward with my "me-ness", expecting people to reject it as my family of origin did? And when they don't respond as my family did, I believe that they can't really see the real me. It's my perception of myself that is off-base, based on the messages I was given as a child?

AN example that springs to mind is; The bright child who does really well in school, and has grades to prove that, but is continually being told "how stupid she is", so whenever she achieves anything as an adult, she minimises her intelligence, and believes anybody could do that. People will tell me "you're very intelligent" but I don't believe it because If a stupid child could get straight-A's, then anybody could, right? Being able to do something, and doing it well, doesn't make me anything special.

I can relate to having difficulties being in social settings and not knowing how to be yourself around other people when the focus becomes being what they want you to be. I think that for me I learned early in life that if my father was happy, we could all be happy, while if my father was unhappy, we would all be unhappy because he would do things to make life miserable if he was miserable. My focus was always on how to make my father happy, especially when he was unhappy, because that was the only way to avoid being miserable. I find that I still have that tendency to want everyone around me to be happy so that my life won't be miserable and as a result I spend my energy on others and not on myself. It takes so much energy to be what others want us to be that I don't have the energy to do things for myself nor do I even know what being genuinely happy means. I tend to go into misery reduction mode rather than to think about what things would bring about true happiness in life and I seldom consider what I would do if I were being true to myself.

I think that what I have managed to do differently is to give the appearance that I have the proper social skills, mainly as a result of my ability to "mimic" normal behaviors. I used to be the child that hunched in a corner and said "leave me alone" when other children approached me. I was so "lost" in my own "world" that I could look right through people without acknowledging their presence. Some people thought I was blind because my eyes would stare right through them. There is no doubt in my mind that I was as "weird" as people suspected and that lead to many referrals to child psychologists during my elementary school years. Then between elementary school and junior high school, I decided to become "popular" and I began acting like the "popular" kids. I am still able to come across as having social skills, even though I would rather not be in social settings at all! I don't exactly know how I can be so different from who I am inside but it works out okay because then people don't have any idea how mental I am.

I doubt this would be called "being true to myself" but then I have a hard time knowing when I am being "real" and when I am playing a "part" because I don't have a sense of who I would be if I were to be myself. I tend to just be what the situation calls for without really thinking about it. This seems like a practical skill and it does serve me well as long as I don't think about it.

I was raised with the expectation that I not speak unless I was spoken to and even then I was not to speak unless I had something important to say. It was hard for me to consider any of my words important enough to speak out loud so I mainly talked in my mind. I thought I would die when I had to stand in front of the class and give a speech for the first time but my voice came out just fine and I apparently sounded like I knew what I was talking about. Not only did I know my subject well enough, I somehow spoke with so much poise that my teacher could not even tell how nervous I was about giving a speech. He was absolutely amazed that I gave such a great speech because he always referred to me as a "clam" who stayed in my "shell" and he did not know that I was capable of coming out at all. All my teachers have said how "relaxed" I appear during public speaking, which seems so strange to me when I can feel myself shaking. I am not sure how I can hide my nervousness so well but the fact that I do hide things well works to my advantage because there is no way I could give a speech as nervous as I get about talking in front of people. I think it may be related to the movement in my head because it is like a wave that filters my thoughts so that I can say the right words in the moment. I have come to trust this ability instead of questioning it too much because it gets me by and enables me to appear as normal as anyone else.

I recently had the opportunity to challenge myself and come out of myself this past week. I was asked to represent an organization I belong to by giving a presentation to a group of people at an insurance company. I know the topic well but I've never been 100% comfortable speaking in front of a group of people.

I arrived a little early and met with the leaders of this group. The other person from my organization who was also going to speak hadn't arrived yet. So they began without her and obviously I started first. I began my talk by saying "Five years ago I never would have thought I could be in front of a group like this and give a talk. But I am very passionate about this topic so here I am." Then I gave my presentation. During my talk, I joked and kidded around a bit - everything was off-the-cuff.

There were a few reasons why this was so amazing to me! First, I had had gum surgery the previous week and was in considerable pain. Second, my T was away on vacation and I did not have his support that week. But I was able to tackle this obstacle and not only do it but succeed very well! I definitely stepped out of my comfort zone!

I have been walking on a high the past few days, despite the horrible physical pain I am in. I'm not a bragger, but for me, this has definitely been an accomplishment. I think I sort of stepped out of myself while I was giving the talk. Almost like I was watching myself from the sidelines. I was not dissociating, but I could tell I had this little voice in my head pushing me forward.

So in this instance, I'd say I did scare myself, I stopped taking things so damn seriously, I started something, and I sort of stopped hiding who I really was. And you know what? I did have a lot of Fun!

I found this article interesting and thought I would share it in this thread.

Introvert - Extrovert

Smilin, I re-ran through the video. I imediately get stuck at the first suggestion: What do I stand for? When you know who you really are, turn up the volume? I don't know who I really am, as I was never allowed to be that person. How does one get to know who they are, and what they stand for? My immediate thought on that question is "go out and try on a variery of hats, and see which ones suit me." In order to do that, I'm inclined to want to go about those 8 things in reverse order.

Start something - Pick something, Something small, with relatively small associated risk (every success clocks up and adds mastery)
Stop being busy - Stop being so busy with "have-to-do's and other commitments and give myself time & permission to try out new things and to have some fun.
Start getting rid of the crap - Whilst doing something, be aware of the "crap" that is playing out in my mind/body. Observe it, let it be there, but don't let it take over me.
Stop taking it all so damn seriously - Lighten up, laugh a little. Don't get hung up on any mistakes I might make. Hey, I'm new at this "fun thing." I can't be expected to get everything right, first go. If I find that the chosen activity doesn't appeal to me, who cares? Stop doing it and find something else to try.
Start scaring yourself - Now that I've perhaps faced something small (or several small things), it is time to do something a little bit more risky.
Stop following the rules -
Start being intensely selfish - Now that I'm gaining some confidence in new areas, give myself more time and permission to pursue them.
Stop hiding who you really are - Having experimented with a whole host of new activities, I might actually then discover "who I am."

A T that I saw briefly (for 3 months whilst my regular T was away) did an exercise with me. He drew a big circle and divided it into segments. In each segment he wrote down some of the things which I am. I am a mother, a wife, a home-maker, a survivor of chronic abuse, an employee, etc, but what was lacking in my answers, and on the circle was "the lighter things in life." I couldn't say that I was a dancer, or an artist, or a trout fisherman, etc, because they were not things that I had done, or if I had, it was because somebody else told me "you have to." Example: Highland dancing was something I was "made to do", and I did for 12 years, but I never enjoyed it, because it wasn't something I really wanted to do. I just knew the consequences of refusing to do something would be far worse than "putting up with it."

I struggled with this exercise, because I have no idea who I am and what I'd enjoy to do. My me-ness was already kicked out of me before I had conscious memories. If a child has never had the freedom to explore the world and to find out their likes and dislikes, how do they know who they are and what they like?

Whether anybody can relate to my view that these things should be done backwards, I don't know, but the place for me to start is with 8 - Start something.

DenimBlue - I think we've discussed this in another thread, once before. Both of us seemed to have developed an ability to "look ok on the outside", even when we're freaking out on the inside. I wonder if its why all so often, I feel as others are not really seeing me or don't really know who I am. To me this isn't being myself. Being myself, as I define it is my outer actions/appearance is congruent with my inner experience. If I look happy on the outside, and am feeling miserable on the inside, this isn't being myself and being congruent. It's fake.

BG - Congratulations on your recent achievement and success.

Tracy - Thanks for sharing the article. I will read it more thoroughly when I have a chance.

My definition for myself of "being myself" I think means more of a harmonious and fruitful relationship between my inner and outer selves. My outer self is allowed to conceal my inner feelings, as reserve can be self protection. I am much more the kind of person who wears their heart on their sleeve too much though. You want to break down your own reserve, as I understand it, but of course you don't want to leave yourself vulnerable. What I think needs to happen with our emotions, in order to function healthily, is that our outer selves must express those emotions, rather than react to them. When I think of the word "express" I think of an express train, delivering my emotions from inside me to the outside world, via a journey where I process the information I need to choose the best course of action. It's possible to apply rationality to how emotions are expressed. Rationally dealing with the irrational. So, for example, if someone says something that hurts you, you don't necessarily need to cry right there, even though that's how you feel like behaving, but you can withhold your tears and actually communicate "I find/found that a little hurtful". Or you might decide that the person you're with is in no mind right now to hear anything, so you withhold your comment until later. I think this kind of controlled communication of our emotions allows us to make rationally judged decisions about how we express ourselves, giving us the opportunity to choose the best way and time to be heard. Emotions are acceptable in public, but to become emotional has limits in it's acceptability. And also, people are not always ready to hear how you feel.

A lot of the emotion I experience when I'm interacting with people is really irrational, my stuff kind of stuff. It's sudden feelings of worthlessness, or jealousy, or bitterness, sometimes anger. Stuff from my past leaping up in my chest. Now that kind of emotion I find really difficult to deal with bc the expression needs to be private. It's just not appropriate to reveal all of that stuff when you're in a social setting. So it needs to be somewhat repressed. Usually if I become very upset and fragile all of a sudden, which does happen from time to time, I'll take myself off to the bathroom and let it out. I think it does help. Mostly I try to keep stock of it and recognise that it is just my old stuff. The less I listen to it the less I hear. I don't think I'm very good at it though. Lots of room for improvement.

There's a lot to be said for staying in the moment when socialising (mindfulness). I really find I go through all kinds of anxiety while I'm speaking to people. About whether my joke's funny and if these people think I'm a moron. I know you to be very in touch with your emotions and imagine you are able to identify the subtleties in your physical experience of these emotions. I've seen a lot of your work on these skills and believe that allowing yourself to consciously recognise what's happening to you internally, from a completely non-biased POV, will help you to remain calm and open up to people. It gives you an understanding of yourself and a distance from which to make wise decisions. Mindfulness is something you can have confidence in. Have you tried using it when you're out?

Sarah, I had a powerful reaction to this post. Hell, even had to put down my chicken salad sandwich. The reaction says to me this is one of the most effective bits of thinking and writing Ive seen about Emotion Regulation in years. Way to go. And thanks.

Sarah, great post! Yes, it gave me a lot to think about. And as I finished reading the post I realized something. I don't second-guess myself as much as I used to.

When I used to be in a social setting, especially with people I didn't previously know or who I didn't know very well, I would leave and think back and say "was I okay? Did I say something stupid?" etc. etc. I worried over what I might have said that could show me in a bad light.

But lately I have stopped doing that. So that must mean I am more sure of myself and have stopepd second-guessing myself. Yesterday I went to a barbeque and I didn't know any of the people there. I sat with 2 women and spent about 2 hours chatting with them. Not once did I question myself or look back and question things I might have said.

For me, that is progress. I am not as unsure of myself anymore and have more faith in myself. I'm not saying this in a bragging kind of way - I just am sharing what skills I have achieved. I don't know if this will stay the same - things never stay the same for long, do they? But for now, I am feeling better about myself and more sure of myself. That's a big step for me! One thing I can say that helps it work is that I try to think before I speak. How will what I say impact me? In the past, I used to ramble on and sort of gush out of the mouth. Say whatever came to mind. But as I said, I think first and am more deliberate in my words. That makes a big difference. I think my T would say I am trying to be Effective. Interesting stuff.

I think that is why I have such a hard time knowing what is real. Perhaps if I am able to pull it off okay on the outside, things are not as messed up as they seem inside. After all, I must be "me" or else I would be someone else pretending to be me and that line of thinking still confuses me too much to pursue it right now. I certainly don't need to add any more confusion to this thread so I probably don't have anything more to add at this time. Thinking out loud is usually not the best way to process my thoughts.

I appreciate all the different elements that have been brought into this discussion, but TBH, I'm starting to feel somewhat over-whelmed with it all. Too much information, too many different ideas. I think this is another part of the social anxiety. I do better one on one where the conversation flows, but when there are 10 people talking, all coming at different angles, I kind of get over-loaded by it all. I can't process it all at once, and that then adds to the anxiety. I clam up. I'm going to step away from this thread now, and start putting some of the ideas into practice.

I just want to thank you for this thread, Amanda. I know you are stepping away, so I won't add more confusion. I identify with a lot of the thoughts and feelings expressed here, and wish you well.

It also takes me awhile, sometimes weeks, to weed through a thread and come to a good understanding of it all. Perhaps accept that it will, and that it doesn't have to lead to anxiety? I think just acknowledging that you need time to think before responding is enough, that you don't have to expect something from yourself you can't do, or believe that others expect more from you.

Sounds like some great self care there Amanda.

I too have appreciated this thread. Hey you arent alone at least eh? With all this input I can see a whole ton of people that relate. Take your time, take what you need from the discussion. Has been a good thread, even if it did go off from where you intended it to.

You're under no obligation to respond to people's posts immediately Amanda, but I appreciate you saying how you're feeling about it.

Sarah, I've just spend some time re-reading your 2nd to last post to me.

You've explained the communication of emotions thing really well. I pretty much already do what you've said, except I am very reserved around people I do not know or don't feel comfortable/safe with. Say somebody said something and I noticed I was feeling hurt. If it was somebody I trusted and felt safe with, I'd say "I feel hurt." But, if it's somebody that I hardly even know, I'd conceal that feeling on the inside and say nothing, even if I had good reason to feel hurt. This isn't really healthy because it says "hey look, you can hurt me as much as you want to and I'm just going to let you; and say/do nothing about it." (Probably why I developed PTSD.) My problem isn't about controlling irrational emotional outbursts. I had the expression of emotions beaten out of me very early in life. I need to learn to not hide my inner feelings so much and to feel I can express them when it is appropriate to do so. You have any idea how hard it was for me to post that last post I made? In the not so recent past, I would have just stepped away and said nothing, giving people the impression that I wasn't interested in anything they had to say, and giving them the message "don't waste your time posting in Amanda's threads." And I guess I give off that same impression in social settings, when I listen a lot, but say nothing.

Like you, I'm aware that sometimes that my emotional experience doesn't fit the situation, and it's wise at those times as you say to process those feelings once away from the situation. And I'm inclined to think that my anxiety & discomfort around people in social settings is one of those emotional experiences. I guess I could try using mindfulness in a social setting. I've practiced it a lot in therapy and in my day-to-day life, but in a social setting, I think I let the feelings over-whelm me to the point of "shut-down", instead of observing them from a distance, or I let them stop me from stepping out in the first place.

Thanks for your post Sarah. I agree that it is a very powerful bit of writing/thinking. You've summed up the process and purpose of emotional regulation really well.