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The other day I was thinking about all the years I "raged" against my H. I used to blame these episodes on PMS. I didn't know I had BPD and never thought it might be anything else except raging hormones. Now I'm older, post-menopausal, and diagnosed for 3 years with BPD. I've read a lot about BPD and about the rages that I and other people experienced.

So I'm wondering if all those rages I used to have were in fact BPD symptoms and not PMS? I know I'll never really know, but I wonder what it's like for those of you who are still having your monthly cycles. Do you find that you rage once a month at that "special" time, or do you think it's random and more associated with BPD? Just wondering.....

I guess my answer would be mostly no.

PMS for me, when I experience it, means like a week before, I will either have a few days of rage like you speak of, or I'll be incredibly weepy. But normally as soon as I notice the unusual flux from my normal emotional level, I can sort of defuse the pms symptoms (or at least go in hiding until they pass and I'm less scary). I don't always have PMS each month, though. And the weepy episodes happen as frequently as the furious ones, about even. Heck sometimes I think I just alternate between the 2.

do the 2 feed into one another or exacerbate the situation? I'd say most likely yes from my own experience. If I'm already triggered up, then I'm probably more inclined to have one of those cry/rage deals when that week before shows up. (and hmm, that may be what is/was fueling my anxiety last night, since it is about that time)

I tend to internalize the pms though as soon as I realize it's working on me. It's rare that I rage against someone else. I'm more inclined to rant and rave, which most of the people around me tend to be amused by. I guess I'm lucky there.

I'm inclined to think both.

I don't rage, but, as far as dealing with my emotions in general, it's like, first it was I just didn't know how to deal with them at all, and I never noticed PMS. Then as I got better at dealing with my emotions, I really noticed PMS, and it was like, I could deal with my feelings most of the month, except right before my period. Now I tend not to notice, and I think it's just because I now can deal with emotional stuff even in those times. Also, working out specific issues that tended to be the ones that were the most troublesome helps too.

If the timing back then was consistant with PMS, then I'd say PMS likely was a factor, but, still, likely not just a PMS thing. Seems to me that it would be pretty normal for those who have BPD and PMS, for the BPD symptoms to be worse during the PMS times.

Most of the time, happy pills keep me on an even keel though I generally dislike people overall as a species. When everything about my husband drives me up the wall, I know it's PMS.

There's a very brief window of time when not much really bothers me. Then I feel like I'm surrounded by idiots and nimrods. When I start applying those labels to my husband, we've definitely hit The PMS Zone. That's the only way I can tell cuz it's like the PMS is an exaggeration of the baseline dislike of humanity. The closer that circle of dislike gets to the epicenter (me), the more indicative it is (IMO) that I'm in the midst of PMS.

I get what you're saying Ash. But does BPD fit into this at all with you? How do you know the difference between PMS and BPD behaviors?

Argh, I knew I blew it with my explanation!

If I have a good hormone day along with my happy pill, I'm actually quite tolerant of the world at large. This is how I think I would be without BPD or PMS and perfect hormones.

If I only want to kill random strangers, that's my normal baseline. I figure that's either my inherent BPD stuff sneaking through or the non-ideal hormones starting to go sideways.

When I want to kill my husband (closest to me), that's PMS. The previous stage is amplified and encompasses even those I love the mostest. I'll even be able to recognize "I don't really want to kill him and I know this is PMS and I know I can use my tools but dammit, I just really want to kill him for being such a frickin' bonehead!"

Using this nifty little diagram from the August 2007 Cosmo, (sorry it's not in color, it's much nicer in color):



Basically I'm pretty mellow (when cramps aren't making me cranky) the first 8 or 9 days. Around day 21, that's when I'm ready to kill my husband and it's definitely PMS.

It's hard to see on the black-and-white version but right around that Day 21, the testosterone is about half of what it is at Day 13, the Estrogen is about 2/3 what it is at Day 13 and the Progesterone is at its peak. That's my deadly time. For the most part, general cantankerousness toward humanity prevails because I'm very much an introvert and perfectionist. When the hormones aren't surging around and I have Happy Pills in me, I can usually keep those introverted perfectionist tendencies from spilling out at random strangers in the form of BPD acting out. When the hormones do start up, my tools become less effective and there can be a bit more acting out than I'd like.

At this point, when I'm in full-on-PMS mode (ready to kill the world AND my husband), that's essentially how I was all the time with borderline -- nothing's right, nothing's good, everything is someone else's fault, the world is about to implode, I fly off the handle at the tiniest things, etc.

Remember: the BPD diagnostic criteria can be found in all of humanity. It's the frequency and ferocity of those things that qualify one for a BPD diagnosis. So it's perfectly understandable that it's tough to distinguish between BPD and PMS. PMS can certainly look a lot like BPD because (IMO) the surges of hormones can intensify lots of things and negate regularly effective coping strategies.

Thanks Ash. I think I understand. Maybe it means that the PMS symptoms make our BPD symptoms worse? So it's not either/or. It's more like both working at the same time. Boy, was I a bitch when I had PMS then. I used to say that if I had a cast-iron skillet I'd hit my H on the head with it. All he had to do was breathe and I wanted to kill him. Now that I hardly have hormones, I don't rage as much. But the past few days I've had the urges again. And I must say this cannot be hormonal. So it's gotta be the BPD stuff. I'm able to contain it, but not enough I guess. Like, my H comes home and I look at him and want to put him through the wall. No apparent reason. WTF? No PMS there. It's gotta be BPD stuff. Go figure. I think I am not very fine-tuned and cannot take life very easily. I do best when I'm by myself, alone, with no people around. I'm sort of like you Ash in that respect. I have trouble being around a lot of people. I have no patience. Well, the 2 good things are that now I know what this is all caused by, and that I do have some tools to work with. And 3 - that I have a wonderful T. I used to think if I literally banged my head against the wall I could change. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen (changing, I mean, not banging my head).

what part of the cycle is it when you want to kill me, Ash?

im not a random stranger but im not a spouse....?

kinda joking a bit...but not all the way ...to be honest....i cant figure out why sometimes you are ok with me and others you obviously want me dead and hate the sight of me.

ps please dont misunderstand. that is not a invite to re list all my many faults yet again. it was focused on you and your ummmm reactions to me. not me as who i am as a person. on YOU.

thanks!

This might be a bit off-base, but one good friend of mine is in her early 60's (I'm 36.) She stopped having monthly's years ago, but her body and moods still go through the same monthly patterns. It's kind of uncanny but, her patterns seem to be in tune with my monthly cycles (I have heard this happening with people who are close, mothers and daughters synchronising their cycles, but it's still weird.) She retains fluid for 3-4 days. She's irritable, and easily rattled emotionally; she feels bloated, has the disrupted sleep (frequent bathroom stops), pretty much the same stuff that I experience; and seems to come right at the same time as I come right - when my period actually arrives. I don't think menopause necessarily means the hormones completely stop flowing, therefore it could be possible that one still has the mood changes associated with hormone changes. I'm not an expert on this, but just thought I'd share about my friend and she doesn't have BPD, BTW.

My opinion is...
I do see how the BPD exacerbates the PMS symptoms or vice-versa. I do get less in control of my BPD during my PMS phase of my cycle. It's so noticable my H knows when to stay away without a word. Also, I know that the pitutary gland in your brain is responsible for many of your female hormones (or at least the regulation of such) too. So, while you may not be cycling anymore, you still have these hormones. Just not the same levels/combos.
Interesting to think about.......

Hi everyone. I'm joining this conversation late but I wanted to add that although the BPD traits may have shone through often, I found out that I was suffering from PMDD. It was really, really bad! The rage, out of control feelings, actually felt like I was losing my mind. My hormonal balance was always way off.

I am on Estrogen, now, but had post partum strike as well. (19 years ago now but I still remember vividly!) I have not felt so great "[i]hormonally[i]", since I had my hysterectomy at 30 years old!! (I was very sick so many physical abnormalities played in the role of my needing surgery) It was a total turn around. I must admit 'spontaneous menopause' wasn't fun but no more PMDD or Post Partum for me!

You may find more information on how you are feeling, if you take a look into 'PMDD'. Many women think they have bad, bad PMS but come to find out that there is a much more serious problem, with crazy thinking (or not thinking) during your cycle.

Glad you are feeling better!
God Bless
Steff

Bordergirl,

I always knew the difference as the feelings with PMS were much harder to control than the BPD symptoms...I'd feel an overpowering urge to do something very damaging,lol; there was always a different "feel" to the feelings. Now, at 60, I am, like Amanda's friend, still having some hormonal horrors, but it is not nearly as extreme as when I had monthly cycles. Also, my skin broke out with monthly cycles as it still does, which confirmed the hormonal involvement.

cosmo

Thanks for all the replies. I do recall the out-of-control feelings coming over me with PMS. I had all this RAGE inside of me. I did want to kill someone! But now that I look at it, my BPD rages are different. The PMS rages came out of nowhere. But the BPD stuff was always IN REACTION to something. To something someone said or did to me. So maybe that's the different for me. The PMS was over nothing specific. But the BPD stuff was.

I agree that hormones play a huge role in our emotions. I think in one sense I am better since I went through menopause. Amanda, maybe your friend needs to get her hormone and thyroid levels checked. Maybe she's out-of-whack somewhere.

I appreciate this dialogue. I helps put things in perspective.

Great insight BG!

Thanks Amanda. I believe, as I've said here before, that something in my brain is changing and I'm thinking very clearly now. Every day something happens to illuminate me and I see the results. It's quite amazing! I am functioning at one of the highest levels I have in many years. Quite remarkable. Again, I have to thank my T, my meds, my friends here at BPDR, and the DBT group on Yahoo. All of these combined have helped me greatly!

for me, I think that the PMS exacerbates the borderline. they think I have PMDD rather than PMS but my meds are helping with that. but you add in the components of BPD and my emotions get way out of hand. I start to obsess, I want to self harm, and I get suicidal thoughts more intensely. Not sure if that made any sense but its what I experience.

Roo