BPDRecovery.com: Forums

Why are you miserable? Are you blaming me for that? It's your choice to be miserable or not?. Where did I say you were a horrible person? If you want to believe that about yourself, that's your choice. I certainly never said it or even implied it.

My issues was with the treatment of the newbie (and I guess all newbies that come here.) Do you remember being new? I know I do. Can you put yourself into the shoes of a newbie? Somebody who has probably never seen the tools on the left before, probably has no clue about "separation of stuff", "not taking things personally" yadda, yadda. (You as well as anybody know it can take some time to learn and put those tools into practice - It doesn't happen in 5 minutes.)

I could imagine as a newbie coming in (with no prior knowledge of the tools to the left) and being open about themselves; and sharing their way of processing things, all hurt and upset, and in a lather, and then being told "Why don't you do this instead. Here's another way to deal with it." To them that might come across as "You're doing it the wrong way. This is the right way." It could come across as invalidating of the choice of path they've taken. invalidation of the way they are feeling. It might feel like an attack. (I'm putting myself in the shoes of a newbie.)

I personally wouldn't see it that way, because I'm familiar with the tools on the left - not taking things personally, separation of stuff, etc, etc. I think some leeway, a bit of empathy and understanding of their plight, and a chance to explore the board and the way things operate, some time to read up and explore the tools/concepts, before rushing somebody with - Why don't you try to do it this way? I think when folks first come here they're looking for some understanding of their situation, to just get it out, to be heard. They're probably not at a stage where they have the insights/skills/tools/abilities to fix the problem. This is what I personally felt was a bit unwelcoming.

I'm not suggesting that people be allowed to come here and carry on doing the same old, same old, for months/years, without exploring the tools, but some lee-way, and some empathy for where they are at as a newbie.

Is this is any clearer? I'm not saying you are horrible person. I can see that your intentions were good. "You seem upset and to be getting nowhere doing it this way, perhaps you could try it this way." I just don't think many newbies are ready to hear this. I think they're not looking for a cure, or a solution at that point, rather a bit of understanding and compassion for their plight.

I was a newbie who would have begged for (and probably did beg for) other ways to look at things. I tried things in such twisted ways that a clear option, someone saying "have you looked at it this way" was a godsend. I AM NOT SAYING ANYTHING BESIDES CBT IS TWISTED. I'm saying we are here to offer help, the way many of us have been helped in through CBT, so of course thats what we suggest when someone says there current way isn't working. That newbie did not, as I remember it, come in saying, my life is getting so much better the deeper I'm digging into my past. If they did, at least in my book, more power to them. They said they were not doing well, why not say what worked for me?

Could someone please provide a link to the thread where this happened? I'm not planning on getting involved (because I have found that it really doesn't make a difference, and my time is better spent elsewhere), but I would like to follow what you are referring to. Thank You.

I just wanted to also add: Ash, you weren't the only one who was involved in that thread. There were others who similarly appeared to be steering this person towards the tools. This is why I chose OTB for this discussion, as opposed to CC.

Kari - If it was just a case of saying "this is what worked for me" then I see that as being fine. It's not directly saying to them "why don't you try this?" There's a difference, I think in how one can present the information and tools on offer.

Kari - It may well be the case that some are desperate and looking for any answer/solutions on offer. For others, they might still be in the "I just need to get this off my chest" stage, the need to be heard and understood stage.

Anyway, this isn't getting my housework done! LOL!

I never said I was blaming you or anyone else for feeling miserable.

Do I remember being new? Here? At the place I founded? I'm not sure I understand the question.

I've been "new" at other places and I learned to sit back, chill a while, tread slowly and get a feel for the place before launching into the mix. I learned that it's best to "get a read on the room" as it were and figure out what the place was all about, who the players were, what goes where, etc. Online communities can be tricky things to crack sometimes, especially if one is a strong personality such as myself.

I don't expect newbies to have memorized the entire site and know exactly what's where but it would be a sign of respect or basic courtesy to poke around a bit to at least acknowledge the work put in by the community. It shows a level of reciprocity -- "I've looked at your stuff, now if you wouldn't mind taking a look at my stuff."

(Those who post meekly with "hi, don't know much, help?" get a bit of a pass IMO to the above simply because they're not showing an overbearing ignorance.)

When someone new wanders in without showing any regard for the tools already here even though they are quite prominently displayed, showcased and referred to regularly, and insists upon launching into their usual modus operandi of focusing solely on themselves and their ways of doing things.

Since I work with analogies, let me try one. I've got a sign on my front lawn that says OPEN HOUSE. Someone comes to the front door and says "Hi, I'm Sally and I saw the sign; I'd love to come in and see what a house in this neighborhood looks like. May I?" "Surely! Come on in, what questions can we answer for you?"

Steve, on the other hand, just barges in, doesn't knock or ring the bell. As soon as he steps inside the threshhold, he kicks off his shoes and heads to the big screen TV, changes the channel from the ambient music to football and proceeds to settle into the couch as if the house is his.

To me, there's a basic difference. When someone charges in and ignores what this place is, what it's about, who's here, what they're working on, what's working for the group and just launches into "Hey, I'm all about this, that and the other thing and I really don't care to hear about what ya'll were talking about before cuz I'm here now and we're talking about me and the ways I like to do things."

You're probably right, Amanda. There probably are people who are at a stage where they have no insights, skills, tools or abilities to address their root problems. That's not really the problem, as far as I'm concerned. This place is all about peer support, learning from each other, sharing what works, focusing on recovery and changing our unhealthy patterns & thoughts.

Someone who's at a stage that says "I focus on the past, on my unhealthy patterns and thoughts" isn't (IMO) demonstrating "I'm here to work on recovery."

The people who are just looking for some understanding of their situation, to be heard, to just get it out (brace yourself) are at the wrong place.

I can point to a half-dozen other BPD-oriented online communities where that is their sole focus: to find understanding, to be heard, to just vent it and move on. This is not that place.

Those boards are the place where folks who are brand-spankin' new to the concept of BPD can hang out and commiserate with others in the same place. If or when they get tired of acting borderline and get sickened by watching others be borderline, that's the stage where I believe folks are "ready" to be part of the BPDR community. They've moved out of the "practicing borderline" stage and into the "recovering from borderline" stage.

Perhaps my tack was a bit unwelcoming -- of the attachment to the past & the overall entry, not necessarily of the newbie themselves.

I've heard that before and my approach hasn't changed much in the last seven years. If they're not ready to be here, if they're not at that stage yet, they're just not ready. No harm, no foul. It is what it is. If they're not ready to change, it's just as well that this is determined right up front.

Newbies in general are indeed steered toward the Tools and I'm curious about what problem you might have with this as a concept. It seems to be a point of contention for you. We steer newbies toward the Tools just as we steer NONs into focusing on themselves rather than asking us to explain their BPD-afflicted person to them. I haven't seen you mention what a 'bad' thing it is to steer NONs toward self-discovery so I'm curious why steering newbies to the Tools is so 'bad' or undesirable to you.

(I'll go find the links if I can.)

Here is the thread that Amanda originally quoted from: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10215

And here is the thread in which I asked a newbie to stop focusing on the unhealthy past, live in the present and focus on making a healthy, happy future:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10150

It does rub me the wrong way when someone's second post in an online community begins with "I am an Inverted Narcissist!" as if it's a badge of honor. I don't know that I need to apologize for that. To me, it smacks of "This is who I am, who I've always been, how I always intend to be!"

My mistake: I've just realised that there were actually 2 posts recently were I felt that the comments were unwelcoming, and somehow in my mind I'd put the 2 posts together and thought they were same person (I guess it pays to check - my memory isn't what it used to be - LOL) In the other post the person actually said they felt like an unwelcome guest because they were re-counting their past, their story and were basically told that it was pointless to do so, and to get into the moment and into the tools. I've mixed the 2 threads up together. Now that I've separated them, my view has changed a little. One was focusing on their abusive past and relating their story, the other was focusing on all the other people who caused his abuse and the why's of the why's stuff, and after 20 years of counselling, still seemed to be stuck. In that case offering them a different perspective seems appropriate. However, I do agree with his POV that exploring ones past doesn't necessarily mean one remains in the "victim cycle." I have thoroughly exhausted mine and in no way see myself as a victim or not moving forward, but it seems this guy wasn't moving forward.

I guess my point is the practice of exploring ones past doesn't automatically conclude that one will stay stuck. One can explore their past and still move forward.

The other newbie (that I seem to have mixed the 2 together) it seemed was just re-counting his personal story in the hope that somebody would relate, and might feel show some empathy and compassion for them, and was new to recovery. In his/her case, I felt some leeway might have been preferable.

My apologies for mixing up those 2 threads together.

I would like to review the thread you're referring to in which a newbie said they felt like an unwelcome guest if you would please share the link.

So, Ash didn't even participate in that thread, it was me. I thought I made it clear that if they handled their situation in a way they were comfortable with, ignore the rest of that post. I always needed a concrete example, I do well with analogies, I know not everyone does, but I need them to understand a concept. Telling me to define the problem doensn't mean as much to me as "my situation was x, but I realised the real problem was Y"
I was simply trying to give someone who said they were having a probalem a POSSIBLE way to work on it.

I'm mulling this over - What is that you really want Ash? Do you want people of all backgrounds, diagnoses, non or otherwise, from different therapy backgrounds to come here for support? Is it your expectation that all who come here must use the tools, must see things your way, do it your way, or take the highway? Why invite all and sundry from all different therapeutic backgrounds, if really you don't want to see that stuff on your board? If you think that engaging in other forms of therapy is unhealthy and keeps people stuck, and proceed to tell them that they are obviously not ready to be here (because they are not doing it your way), then why say they are welcome?

We're never going to agree about the benefits (or unhealthyness as you describe it) of delving into ones past. This kind of touches on that thread I posted about egocentrism - an inability to see past one owns beliefs - a close-mindedness to the possibility that perhaps delving into ones past, can actually be helpful.

If somebody has chosen to do psychoanalysis, you invite them here, telling them their welcome, but then in the next breath, you're saying it's unhealthy to dig into the past, and that if they choose this way then they are not ready to be here. Why invite them in the first place? To tell them how wrong they are? To tell them your opinion and point out how unhealthy it is? Eeek!

Is what you're really saying as I initially stated in Jody's thread: You're welcome here from any therapeutic background but there is an expectation that you practice only CBT whilst you're here? You are expected to use the tools to the left, stay present focused, not divulge information about your past, or attempt to practice any other form of therapy here. You can choose to do both - CBT & your chosen therapy, but the practice of said therapy must be kept away from here, because I personally cannot see any benefit or use for other forms of therapy.

Help me to understand where you're coming from and what it actually is that you want. Once you've got it clear what you do and don't want, then perhaps you could make that known to people before they set foot in the door. They'll either choose to take a look - I'm ready to follow the rules and try something new, or they'll turn away again. Save people the experience of feeling like an unwelcome guest, by clearly defining what it is you expect from people who want to participate here.

Amanda, reading the "unwelcome guest" thread, he said that after a discussion with Ann, who is not an S/CL. She's a member just like you. And she shared what she believes. Do you think that was wrong of her? How does her statement translate into "Ash kicks people out if they don't do CBT?"

This sounds like so much "lather, rinse, repeat" to me -- we have this discussion at least twice a year, like clockwork. And nothing ever changes.

From my perspective, having looked back at the two threads in question, both Capt.Sarcastic and theomorphic were given nice welcomes from several people. CS had heard from five different people -- it's not uncommon for newbies to get only one or two responses to an initial post, since a lot of people here don't ever seem to go there -- before Ann (nicely, I thought) made a suggestion based on her own experience that he might focus on solutions (looking forward) rather than problems (looking backwards). Only then did he get defensive and say he felt unwelcome. Ann didn't say "We have a policy here that we can't talk about our past and you have to use CBT." Nothing of the sort.

Likewise, theomorphic was welcomed nicely, and was sanctioned only when he basically went off on Denim for asking a few questions, one of which, basically said the same kind of thing that Ann did with Capt.Sarcastic.

She didn't say "You can't talk about your past here" any more than Ann did. Theomorphic obviously didn't like what she said and yelled at her (all caps) and was sanctioned for that, not for writing about asking "why" a zillion times. Ash then asked, in a different way, what he wanted to accomplish by focusing on the past, and said "We focus for the most part on the here and now." "The most part" doesn't mean "always" or "totally" or anything like that.

There is no RULE against discussing your past. We don't get mad at people -- newbies or otherwise -- for doing that. Personally, in my own therapeutic history, I spent a fair amount of time with my T talking about my parents and other early experiences in an effort to figure things out. After a while, though, my T gently guided me more toward the future rather than letting me stay stuck in the past. I had needed to get all that old stuff out, to cry and mourn and rant, but doing that wasn't going to change how I functioned in the world now and in the future.

In Jody's original thread that brought all this back up, I quoted this to her from Wikipedia's entry on CBT: It seems to me that in order to figure out how or why thoughts or beliefs are irrational or maladaptive, you do have to look to the past to a degree. But then you look forward -- how can I do this better?

CBT may not be the ONLY way to treat BPD, but I do think it's pretty much considered the BEST way. DBT is CBT with a few twists, and it seems to be the top of the line as far as BPD therapies go. Many therapists use some of the tenets of DBT, like mindfulness, and leave out other parts, and probably never even mention DBT -- mindfulness is also related to different spiritual disciplines, like Buddhism. Ash may not "get" or prefer some of the DBT stuff, and she's certainly not the most spiritual person around here, but she's never said "Don't do this."

A few of you -- Amanda and Jody and maybe a few others -- do inner child stuff. Cool for you. Maybe it's the best thing going for CPTSD -- I wouldn't know because that's not my problem, or the problem of most people here, unless you believe that BPD is CPTSD as some apparently do. Nobody's ever said not to do it, but a fair number of us probably don't get it or use it or want to talk about it much. As for psychoanalysis, I don't get that at all -- the thought of spending YEARS rehashing every past memory is my idea of nothing (plus I don't see how anybody can afford it...) -- I don't think people undergoing psychoanalysis would be very happy here, but that doesn't mean we'd tell them "it's CBT or the highway."

So I don't understand why we have to rehash all this every few months, Amanda. I don't see anything in those two Welcome Wagon threads that is inconsistent with anything else in terms of how the board has conducted itself in the six years that I've been here now.

yall please dont use my name....pleaseeeeeee. it gets me into the thread and im not in it. has nothing to do with me enough to actually point me out...

lets just say..."others" or such please.

i would appreciate it.

I think it's time for a field trip!

If you're not Jewish, pretend we're going to a synagogue. If you're Jewish, pretend we're going to a Catholic church.

Now, for our field trip, we're going to explore what the other religion has to offer, what it's all about, what it can do for each of us as individuals.

If you've never been to a synagogue before, you'll need to know some of the basic customs. For instance, the head must be covered to show God respect. Women may wear a handkerchief-looking scarf and men will wear the yarmulke. If we're going to a Sephardi synagogue, the seats will be arranged around the perimeter of the sanctuary but when we (worshippers) stand up to pray, we are expected to face the Ark.

If you've never been to a Catholic church before, you'll need to know some of the basic customs. For instance, it is a sign of respect to genuflect, or drop to one knee and perform the Sign of the Cross, before entering the pew to take one's seat. Additionally, at the Sign of Peace portion of the liturgy, it is expected that all congregants will turn to one another and shake hands or kiss to offer peace to one another.

Now imagine for a moment that a Catholic enters the synagogue and proceeds to genuflect before taking the seat and then turns to shake hands with those around them while all the other worshippers are facing the Ark to pray. Conversely, imagine the Jew enters the Catholic church with the head covered, doesn't genuflect and turns to the back corner of the church, praying, while all the other congregents are offering each other signs of peace.

Wouldn't it seem rude that the visitors to the place of worship are outright ignoring the customs of those already gathered there? After all, both the church and the synagogue are intended to be places where those of similar faiths may gather together to celebrate their faith in a common fashion with generally accepted and comfortable rituals, honoring their God so it should, in theory, be all the same - six and one-half dozen of the other. It really shouldn't matter if a man wears a yarmulke in a synagogue because he's Catholic and his faith doesn't require him to show respect in that way.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before ya'll get all riled up, I am NOT likening BPDR to a place of worship. This is not a cult. Ya'll are free to believe whatever you'd like, practice however you'd like, do whatever works for you.

All that's being asked is: When in Rome, do as the Romans. If that's too much to ask, if it's too uncomfortable, if it's not your cup of tea after giving it a fair shake, you're not being imprisioned here against your will. You're not being threatened with death if you don't renounce your ways and convert to these ways.

I'm not even saying that "these ways are the best and only ways" for you to 'reach salvation' as it were.

What I'm saying is that we can only conduct one kind of service here without the chaos of the Tower of Babel ensuing.

This isn't a non-denominational church where nothing specific is 'preached' nor is it a right-wing zealout camp where we will pray for your doomed soul if you don't convert and accept Jesus into your heart as your personal lord and savior.

This is a very specific place that focuses on one thing. This is what the focus is. It's not going to change. I cannot say it more clearly than that. This must be the hundredth time I've gone over this. I don't know how to make it any more clear.

Just as you can't really walk into a Burger King and expect to be served a Big Mac, you can get a hamburger and fries but it's just inappropriate for you (in general) to expect that this establishment will bend, twist, contort and become what you want, expect or hope it to become to suit your needs, wants or desires. It is what it is. If you don't like it, fine - you can stay or leave. We won't take it personally, we promise. But for the sake of the community, please stop complaining that we're not giving you the Big Mac you want when you're standing smack dab in the middle of Burger King Headquarters!

Yes, I would like to see people of all backgrounds, diagnoses, non or otherwise, from different therapy backgrounds coming here for peer support using the tools offered here. Those who wish to use different tools are welcome to share them here because, again, this is a peer support group. If the tools offered are of a similar approach to what's already offered here, they will be added to the list of tools (as a few things have been added over the years, brought to us by BPDR members.) If the tools you share are not accepted with open arms or incorporated into the main site, it is not a personal rejection of you as a person. Nor is it a unilaterly rejection of the tool

One would think if I was really that evil and vehemently opposed to new ideas, I wouldn't have added Mobilene's s.ha.m.e, Ellen's Obsessive Relationships, Wondering's Poem for [her] Therapist or IBF's Itemized Response. I find it pretty galling to be on the receiving end of accusations that I am closed to new ways, new tools, different methods, etc., to be honest.

If the Five Steps can help someone who is in the midst of a rough patch with their Transactional Analysis therapy, FANTASTIC!

If the Four Agreements can help someone approaching EMDR for the first time, WONDERFUL!

If the Separation of Stuff premises can help someone afraid of getting lost during inner child work, TERRIFIC!

If the Ten Ways to Untwist Your Thinking can help someone deal with something brought up from their past during a psychoanalysis session, STUPENDOUS!

If none of these things can help any of these people, I will stop inviting them to participate. However since evidence over the years has been directly to the contrary, that these things do help people from all walks of life in numerous different circumstances (though maybe not always in every situation), I will keep encouraging everyone and anyone to participate USING THE TOOLS WE OFFER.

If these things don't work for you but something else does, great - share it with the rest of us, please! That's what we're here for -- to learn and grow from one another. When someone says "I've been in therapy for 20 or 30 years" it's pretty obvious that the particular form of therapy / approach is not working. Something's not connecting - whether it's med related, a paltry practitioner or the therapeutic approach for that person's particular set of needs - whatever the reason, something's broken. If you're here to fix things, we've got tools for you to try. If you don't want to try the tools and insist on continuing down the path that has obviously not worken for you over several decades (and I can think of a half-dozen people that fall under this umbrella) then you really aren't open to peer support and yes, I would like you to leave -- for the sake of the community members who are here to focus on the things BPDR does offer them and for their sake to find a place that's not at odds with their core beliefs.

This is a place where we operate with a narrowed focus (just as WebMD.com doesn't offer stock tips) using tools of a specific nature (just as an OrganicGardening.com website doesn't promote pesticides) for a common goal (just as a SupportMcCain.com website isn't working toward getting Obama elected).

I have been trying really hard to understand what it is ya'll want and it seems that some folks want to see BPDR explode at the seams, covering every topic under the mental health umbrella, offering support on a nearly-limitless array of topics, providing forums and expertise on a wide variety of approaches and tools.

I'm also starting to sense that there may be some antiprocess in play. Each time I go through this, it's almost as if there is a preemptive recognition and marginalization of the undesired information I'm putting forth (you won't get what you want) by the interplay of mental defense mechanisms.

So it seems we're stuck:

BPDR: Amanda & crew:
(Or vice versa, depending on your perspective!)

At a certain point, it becomes obvious that neither side is going to be able to "get it" or "budge" and we've reached an impasse. I think I'm there now.

I am done saying the same things in two dozen different ways. If ya'll won't quit until you get the answer you want and I know you're never going to get the answer you want, it takes two to tango and I'm gonna go sit down. I can't say it any more differently than I already have over the years and my mind is not going to be changed to expand the focus of BPDR and thereby dilute the offerings here to suit or pander or placate a few special interests.

This is what it is. If you don't like it, I'm sorry and I hope you find something you do like. We like what we have here, we've found (or created from scratch) a home for those of us with a shared purpose. If your purpose is different, I wish you well on your journey to create or find a home that suits you.

Here's another version of the same discussion from July 21, 2008.

And here is a much longer version of the same from September 2, 2007 - one year ago exactly.

Here's a version directed to one specific individual from September 14, 2007.

Here's a rather lengthy thread revolving around this same topic from September 10, 2007.

This one is from September 5, 2007 centering on "trying to buy bread at the hardware store."

This one talks about the differences beteween DBT specifically and CBT in general and is from February 26, 2007.

My point exactly - LOL Same dispute, same response - Copied from Ash - LOL. And nothing ever changes. (No growth occurs. Where have I heard this before?) Of course, I forget, you guys are so completely right and my view is completely wrong. There's no meeting of minds. No understanding of where I (or anybody else who raises this issues) could possibly be even considered as having an ounce of truth in what they are saying. There's a pow-wow by the powers that be in their secret admin section of the board, to discuss the person, behind their back (Oh that's right, it's the members who have secret coalitions. It's not ok for them, but the admin can do it - LOL)The decision is then made as to which member(s) of the mod team should jump into Ash's rescue (Oh no, once again it's only other members who do that but it's not ok for them, and perfectly fine for you?) I waste my time saying anything. But, I will leave you all with some food for thought.

I didn't interpret defensiveness at all in his words. I perceived it in a completely different light. I heard "I feel useless and hopeless."



So tell me, do I strike you as somebody who's made no growth in the past 5 years, for which I have spent a considerable amount of time, looking at my past? How much time is one allowed to spend looking at the past? When a newbie walks in freshly diagnosed and is discussing their past, does it have to be nipped in the bud immediately, and they be told it's unhealthy to focus on the past. If it's so unhealthy then why did you examine your own past? If it is a part of the process required before moving forward, why then is it labeled "unhealthy?" Isn't anything that is part of the process and perhaps even necessary, a good thing? Maybe on it's own with no growth it's unhealthy, but then who gets to decide when it stops being helpful and turns into unhealthy?

I don't get this. If the main focus is BPD & CBT, why then invite all and sundry? Wouldn't it save you the hassle if it was just folks with BPD who were engaging in the BEST treatment, - CBT, that were welcome here.



Again why invite somebody from any therapeutic background, if the majority of people aren't interested in discussing it? Why offer a place for support & discussion, if that discussion isn't something that a fair number of you are willing to engage in? Why invite them here to tell them that X form of treatment is unhealthy?


Isn't one of the admin team engaged in this form of therapy and has been for a large number of years? How would she feel reading this? Your strongly worded judgements on a form of therapy that she has chosen? I wonder if she thinks its unhealthy?

I honestly don't see any form of therapy as "unhealthy" if it is working towards the goal of happy, healthy living. I would never label it as such. For me, in the beginning CBT was wrong for me (NB- I'm not calling it unhealthy) - If the cause of my illness was as a result of "over-controlling my emotions" by using my mind(to the point of being completely numb and disconnected from them), then why would continuing to do that be the cure? I guess I know the answer to this myself. CPTSD & BPD are 2 completely different disorders. One is an inability to control ones emotions (And I agree CBT is perfect for that), the other an inability to feel in the first place.

I guess my bottom line here is: CBT for BPD, fine. In the moment stuff = excellent. Have no problem with it, but no this place is not for everyone.(This is something I'd personally like to see addressed in the home page.) In fact for some, it could be quite unhealthy and will actually keep them stuck, especially when they blindly refuse to go through with any other form of treatment, because they think Ash is right, and are brain-washed into believing everything else is unhealthy. I'd like to see an end to the labeling of stuff as healthy/unhealthy. If anything is a helpful part of the process towards, happy, healthy living, then STOP labeling it unhealthy.

Why I have chosen to stick around as long as I have, because after I was done dealing with the "past trauma" and learning how to feel again (using other therapy modalities), I was then, and only then, able to put the tools here into use. Some little bit of Higher Wisdom inside of me knew that one day these tools would be useful to me, but only when I was ready, in my time, not by somebody else's time-frame for recovery. I did it my way, what worked for me, not from some quack describing and labeling things healthy/unhealthy and telling me how to fix myself. I spent a lifetime of fixing myself to comply with somebody else's defnintions of healthy/unhealthy and I ended up having severe mental health issues, so it would make sense that I would choose another path towards recovery, a self-led path.

Anyway, I'm not staying around for the responses, cause I already know what comes next: the "rather, linse, repeat" cycle. LOL Besides, I'm doing well enough now with the tools/skills that I've learned and am ready to leave the "mental health world" behind and get on with my life.

Nothing ever changes. No growth occurs. Really? That's how you see things, Amanda? Really? These statements seem exceedingly black-and-white to me -- nothing, no, never/ever. I don't know if you've had a real-life setback or trigger of some sort but I hope you're able to work yourself out of the all/nothing place sooner rather than later.


I understand what you're saying. I've understood what you've been saying for the last two years, Amanda.

You're saying that I come across as harsh and blunt and tell people to hit the road. You're right, I do.

You're saying that I'm prejudiced toward CBT-based therapy and tools. You're right, I am.

You're saying that I don't understand or fully appreciate the benefits and values of many other types of therapy and tools. You're right, I may not.

But you're WAY off base to suggest that I'm not open to growth, change, understanding or personal freedoms. I'm selective about what I want this place to focus on and you seem to have your nose out of joint (again) that I'm not willing to bring your areas of focus into the spotlight here.



OMG, that has to be the most funny laugh-out-loud-til-I-pee-my-pants thing I've read in ages! Secret pow-wows? Not hardly. Electing someone to jump to my rescue? As if!

I may turn to fellow S/CL members for support (help me have strength to withstand this current onslaught of attacks and outlandish allegations) or for a reality check (what am I not seeing?) or perhaps to let them know that I need to step away before I say unduly harsh things (you guys take over because if I speak again it won't be pretty) but it's never as you describe.

That you believe such things are possible really speaks, IMO, to your opinion of this place. And that makes me wonder why you stick around year after year, Amanda. Luckily enough, you've given a partial answer:


From my perspective, you're essentially saying that you weren't quite ready to be here until a certain particular stage of your own recovery work. Gee, isn't that what I've been saying for a few years? That some people aren't ready to be here?


If I said "come on in if Farfenuffle is your thing!" would you know what Farfenuffle was? What it could do for you? If it was appropriate for you? If you'd like it or hate it?

No, you wouldn't. Just as some of the tools of BPDR work for some folks who've used therapy approaches other than CBT in some situations, if I slam the doors shut and say "You can only come in if you know what CBT is and can demonstrate for me that you're willing to focus only on that while you're here" we'd have no membership at all. If that's how you think I want it, you need to stop trying to get into my head because you're so far off base it's comical.

If all you want is "the sign on the front door changed" to more accurately reflect how you think things are, give me an edited copy to review. Be part of the solution instead of just complaining about the problem for a few years. Instead of telling me what it shouldn't say, tell me what you'd like it to say.

In any other situation, with almost everyone else, I would end this post with kind, patient, understanding, compassionate words designed to get you to reconsider your decision to walk away from BPDR. In this case, however, I hope you were impeccable with your words and I wish you well in your endeavors moving forward.

I think that the difference for you is that you own your behavior in the present rather than using the past to justify poor behavior. What some others do is to use the past as an excuse to shift the blame onto others (parents, spouse, children, etc.). I haven't really seen you do that here so I tend to assume that you don't use "inner child" stuff as a means of avoiding responsibility the way others do. It is fine to recognize that a dysfunctional childhood can result in dysfunctional behavior as adults (although many people with dysfunctional childhoods are not mentally ill), however to use past trauma as an excuse for continuing the dysfunction is not acceptable.

It is good that you have been able to use the tools over time even if you weren't ready for them when you first arrived. I think a lot of people are tolerated by the community in the hope that eventually they will show signs of readiness as well. I am not sure that benefits the community, though, because what I have seen is people who are at a place where they are using the tools and not acting out get so frustrated and annoyed with those who are not ready that it is those people who can most effectively use what BPDR has to offer that choose to leave while those stuck in "acting out" mode insist on staying. I think it would be better if the people who are in a position to make the most of BPDR were the ones using the resources here and that could mean that those who are not in a place of readiness need to spend 20 years in psychoanalysis until they are ready to take responsibility for their own choices.

You have made great progress in 5 years using a combination of approaches while it can take 10 or more years using psychoanalysis alone or other less effective therapies (less effective for treating BPD since psychoanalysis is a treatment modality for neurosis rather than psychosis - PBD falls on the "border" between psychosis and neurosis). Because there is overlap between PTSD and BPD for many people (Complex PTSD is sort of a combination of PTSD and BPD in countries that use different diagnostic codes than we do here - there is no such thing as CPTSD in the United States because it is not in the DSM that insurance companies use in billing), a combination of therapies may be best and part of a person's treatment may involve looking at the past enough to "let go" so they can live in the present.

I do think you may be looking at the issue of looking at the past as more black and white where there are many shades of gray. No one has ever said that looking at the past is wrong, it is just that looking at the past too much can keep a person focused too much on the past and not enough on the present. When it becomes an issue of spending 20 years looking at all the dysfunctional people surrounding a person without taking responsibility for a person's own dysfunction, there has to come a time when a person is ready to take some action and change the only person we have any control over anyway - ourselves. Eventually there comes a time when "that was then, this is now" comes into play and in most cases, the sooner the better. We can't change the past no matter how long we choose to live in it.

Amanda,

I think you and I are alike in the regard that in some ways, you want the site to be something it is not. You want it to grow in a certain direction. It doesn't match your vision of what it would be if you ran it. Same as me.

I think all we can do is explain our views and make suggestions, but that is all. We can't force growth in a certain direction. Therefore, to bring up the topic over and over will result in the same conclusions being drawn.

Do you think you could use radical acceptance in order to accept that BPDR is a manifestation of Ash'es vision, and this is how she wants BPDR to be, regardless of how you would like it to be?

You are totally mistaken if you think that we have had some kind of confab, and I was nominated to "copy" Ash or "jump to [her] rescue." I made the decision to post completely on my own, and have discussed nothing about it with Ash or any other S/CL, either before I wrote it or since.

I do not feel that your view is "completely wrong," and have never said so. But I am convinced that your determination to remake this board into something that YOU want it to be, rather than what Ash has designed it to be, IS wrong and pretty much doomed to failure. You're right -- there is no meeting of minds. So yeah, you're wasting your time. But you still crank this same discussion back up every few months, for whatever reason.

The board and its content have grown over the years. But its focus and primary objective haven't. The goal is happy, healthy living. No doubt there are different routes to get there, but Ash and THIS board choose to concentrate on CBT. It's fine for people to talk about other modalities, but they probably aren't going to find as much support, and that's just the way it is.

I never said that revisiting the past is totally unhealthy, and I have never, to my recollection, ever jumped on a newbie, or even many others, for doing so. I don't know how much time should be spent in looking back -- there's obviously no right answer to that question. I spent a number of months, maybe a year at most, working out my issues about my family and other stuff from my childhood -- that was during a time when I was severely depressed, hospitalized twice for ECT treatments, and progress was very slow. Every once in a while something "old" will still bubble to the surface, or an interaction with a family member will set me off in some way, but I rarely need to spend much time on it -- for the most part I can now just let it go. It doesn't control me anymore. I can't change the past, but I can control the future. I know that's been said many, many times around here, because it's true. I just don't get how it's necessary to rehash the past for years and years and years. If someone feels they must do that, it's certainly not for me to say otherwise, but I agree with Ash that if that's the case, then BPDR might not be the best place for them to work it all out, especially if they don't feel at all ready to start to move forward.

I'm not aware of anybody here, much less an S/CL, undergoing traditional Freudian psychoanalysis -- maybe I'm brain dead but I can't think of who that might be. If someone is, and can afford it, more power to them, but I'm still dubious about it. If that hurts somebody's feelings, so be it.

I'm glad you've made progress, Amanda, and are "ready to leave the 'mental health world' behind." Good luck as you get on with your life.

For anyone inclined to offer helpful suggestions on ways to eliminate the confusion about what BPDR truly offers, provides, focuses on, etc., I have opened a separate thread here where I'm hopeful we can stay out of the muck and mire, name-calling and arguments and stay focused on the bigger picture.

I look forward to productive discussion there.

Ash, I've just read a few of the posts here. But what you wrote about being new and only focusing on the past but not learning new skills, reminded me of something.

I have Fibromyalgia. I once went to a Fibro Support Group. They were mostly women. I came, expecting to learn tools to deal with my pain and fatigue. Learn new ideas and new ways of doing things. Well, was I disappointed! All the women did was sit around and complain. They couldn't exercise, they couldn't do this, they couldn't do that. What a waste of my time that was! A few years later, I found another Fibro group. It was holistically-based, focusing on proper diet, proper sleep, exercise, and the use of supplements. I learned a lot in that class, things I still use to this day. The group eventually broke up, but I never forgot what I have learned. Once, in the holistic group, a family of 3 came in, all who had Fibro. They refused to take the advice of what was being taught - they still ate poorly, would not exercise and did not take responsibility for their well-being. I doubt very much that they have gotten very far in helping themselves.

So I understand where you are coming from. I don't know what I expected when I first came here, but I know I learned a lot more than I thought I would. I see nothing wrong in offering a newcomer some hard-earned advice that you have. Since this is a peer-based group, that is what would be expected (imo).